| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| frapast1981 |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 09:45:59
Dear Scribes
I have this problem: I will be soon DMing my old group of player. They are 4 players, all of 11 level. Reading from the DM Manual (3.5) I know that for a party of this kind an average encounter is 6 enemy of 6 level. I think that the majority of the encounters should be with more enemy of lower levels than the party.
Now they are stucked in Everlund and, as per "The Savage Frontier" supplement, this city is inhabited by 12000 people. I would like to pit the party against some city gangs (thieves, murderers, smuggler, and so on). Now my guess is that in a city like Everlund maybe 1% of the people is involved in gangs: so we have 120 people. I don't think that more of 20 (maybe less) of this are of 6th level. Not nearly enough to set up a good small adventure.
I like to create "realistic" adventure (not too much over-powered enemies) and I don't think it's realistic that in a city there are too many powerful thieves (I think that a thief of 6 level is quite powerful!). Obviously I'm not talking about Westgate or Telflamm  .
So my request: how would you handle this situation? Any suggestion will be appreciated.
Thank you very much
Rocco |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 18:29:31
Always wondered how this turned out... |
| frapast1981 |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 10:20:00
Dalor
You have the cunning of a Pit-Fiend!
Thank you very much, great idea. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 19:17:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I like the way you think, and might have to borrow elements of that (particularly, the pit part. Nothing like a good pit, I say.)
Aye...pits are the best!
Sgt. of the Guard: "Holy Tempus! Can you believe the number of monsters that just poured out of that little hole in the ground general!"
General, thinking suspiciously: "Aye...its like they were coming from the depths of the Abyss itself isn't it..."
You can put a pit anywhere...even right under a city. 
Like Everlund... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 18:34:07
-I like the way you think, and might have to borrow elements of that (particularly, the pit part. Nothing like a good pit, I say.) |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 18:15:52
In my own campaign, a particularly evil and power-hungry wizard; seeking to conquer an empire of his own, nurtured breeding pits of Deepspawn kept prisoner but well fed to breed legions of soldiers.
Essentially, armies full of 8th level "Scions of Aedem" as they were called. They simply were breed by the thousands.
The party had to infiltrate the Deepspawn Breeding Pits and poison the hundreds of monsters there to stop it...but there were still legions of Scions of Aedem left.
Hmmm...brings back sinister memories. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 17:14:19
-In my own setting, I hinted to a leader instigating a terrorist attack to give him more power, in order to give himself absolute power, and alluded to his "personal guard" being clones of each other. The PCs never bothered to investigate that, so it just kind of sat there, dangling. Now, with Deepspawn, I have the perfect explanation. Thanks. |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 11:39:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Just as an aside...whatever evil organization you have working there could have a Deepspawn as a pet/slave.
A Deepspawn could easily keep popping out the same group of baddies that the party has to face again and again and again.
Going a bit deeper into it: The Zhents (or whoever) bring the Deepspawn into the city somehow and hide it away. They then hire a group of adventurers, through one of their "Neutrally" aligned (read merceneary here) agents (who may know nothing of their true plans) to attack and defeat the Deepspawn...knowing full well the monster is simply going to eat them and then be able to reproduce them in the future.
I don't know if you have seen the Arnold Swartzeneger (sp?) film where the baddies keep coming back no matter how many times they are killed...but this would be a good thing in Everlund. That way you can have the party face again and again these 6th level (or whatever level) agents of the Zhentarim (or whoever). Even better, the Deepspawn is taking orders from a "Mysterious Master" and these mass produced agents don't even know why they are attacking the party again and again!
Just an idea.
Deepspawns are indeed wacky opponents. My group encountered one in the Pool of Radiance - Attack on Myth Drannor module and wondered why they fought the same monsters over and over again. Very funny (for the DM) and very frustrating (for the PCs) at the same time.
There are some really good ideas here in this scroll that I can use in my own campaign. |
| frapast1981 |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 09:59:21
Thank you for your suggestions! They will be useful for a lot of adventures!
It's always a pleasure to find people that share your main hobby!
Rocco |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 17:55:26
Just as an aside...whatever evil organization you have working there could have a Deepspawn as a pet/slave.
A Deepspawn could easily keep popping out the same group of baddies that the party has to face again and again and again.
Going a bit deeper into it: The Zhents (or whoever) bring the Deepspawn into the city somehow and hide it away. They then hire a group of adventurers, through one of their "Neutrally" aligned (read merceneary here) agents (who may know nothing of their true plans) to attack and defeat the Deepspawn...knowing full well the monster is simply going to eat them and then be able to reproduce them in the future.
I don't know if you have seen the Arnold Swartzeneger (sp?) film where the baddies keep coming back no matter how many times they are killed...but this would be a good thing in Everlund. That way you can have the party face again and again these 6th level (or whatever level) agents of the Zhentarim (or whoever). Even better, the Deepspawn is taking orders from a "Mysterious Master" and these mass produced agents don't even know why they are attacking the party again and again!
Just an idea. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 17:25:03
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Possibilities include, but are not limited to:
Also:
F) Puppet state for land/power/coin (see Yulash).
G) Trade favoritism (lower tariffs on goods arriving from Zhentil Keep).
H) Coin-laundring (set up dummy businesses/merchantile bodies to hide undeclared/hidden coin-flow from any of the states that do trade with Everlund, which flows unhindered into Zhentil Keep coffers).
I) Keep taps on the increasingly powerful Silver Marches--gain a voice on their council, to influence them to make decisions in your favor, all the while disguising your actions as being in support of *Everlund*, rather than Zhentil Keep.
J) National security: Destablize a growing threat (the Silver Marches) to one's home country (Zhentil Keep, or whatever).
There are *lots* of things the zhents could do if they controlled (or even had major influences in) a city like Everlund. What they're able to pull off depends on the extent of that control.
Killing the ruler and replacing him with a puppet is a time-honored and excellent plot/scheme. I like the idea of the lesser politician, but consider as well access to doppelgangers, beholders, or powerful wizards.
If they were smart (and Manshoon, Fzoul, Semmemmon, etc., are VERY smart), the zhents (or whoever) would float MULTIPLE claimants for the throne of Everlund.
Here's what you do: Have one guy who is obviously evil go in and claim the throne from Moorwalker. Maybe this candidate is a beholder or other monster, who can be publicly exposed (you'll want to do that later).
Then have your second candidate (who is selected for how he *seems* like a good guy) be the great liberator, who overthrows the Usurper, ostensibly mourns the loss of Moorwalker (thus claiming the hearts of the people), and accepts the throne with humility and dignity . . . then subtly undermines the state to his own ends or is beholden to the evil powers that put him there (see Julius Caeser - Brutus - Marc Antony).
The PCs might even help this merchant into power by ousting the dictator, and realize only too late that they have put a crooked ruler on the throne--do they protest (and risk being labeled as turn-coats or ambitious power-grabbers themselves) or do they take matters into their own hands and assassinate the new lord of Everlund?
Even if going against the new lord is the right thing to do, he's so popular they may risk being branded as traitors to the city and the Silver Marches in general.
Cheers |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 17:06:50
quote:
Originally posted by frapast1981
So just another question involving the Zhentarim: I know that they operate controlling the trade (my caravans can pass safely, yours are unfortunately been assaulted by that brigands) and by assasination, arson, blackmail and so on. But what they would gain by controlling, at least partially, a city like Everlund? (I know it's a generic question but sometimes I have problem with the motivation of groups so widespread like the Zhentarim).
-Possibilities include, but are not limited to:
A) All kinds of fronts to fence illegal goods.
B) A new market to sell illicit goods, like drugs or slaves or what have you.
C) An expanded source of recruits.
D) A power base, of sorts, in a region, which would give them a starting point to further integrate and entrench themselves in the area.
E) Access to resources only available in Everlund (Like, say, libraries, or specific individuals, things like that). |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 16:05:43
quote:
Originally posted by frapast1981
So just another question involving the Zhentarim: I know that they operate controlling the trade (my caravans can pass safely, yours are unfortunately been assaulted by that brigands) and by assasination, arson, blackmail and so on. But what they would gain by controlling, at least partially, a city like Everlund? (I know it's a generic question but sometimes I have problem with the motivation of groups so widespread like the Zhentarim).
Rocco
Just as any other networks (that includes good-aligned networks). More ears and eyes spread over faerun, knowledge is power man. More recruitment, yes some local kids can aspire to strange stuff. They become even more feared/loved/hated/envied, so more powerful. |
| frapast1981 |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 16:00:02
I would like to thank all of you for your help.
Your suggestion are making me think of a plan involving the elimination of Kayl Moorwalker (commander of the military forces of Everlund) so that he can be substituted by another noble who just happen to be the pawn of someone else ( I was thinking about Darkhold Zhentarim). Maybe the local "guild" is informed somehow of this plan (Harpers? ) and having some kind of agreement with Lord Moorwalker, actively try to prevent the killing.
So just another question involving the Zhentarim: I know that they operate controlling the trade (my caravans can pass safely, yours are unfortunately been assaulted by that brigands) and by assasination, arson, blackmail and so on. But what they would gain by controlling, at least partially, a city like Everlund? (I know it's a generic question but sometimes I have problem with the motivation of groups so widespread like the Zhentarim).
Rocco |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:47:08
quote:
Originally posted by frapast1981
Thank you Dagnirion
your suggestion is interesting. But with your answer comes more question from me: I need to find a way to integrate this new criminals in Everlund. I think that a city, like any other environment, has a limited amount of energy to share between his inhabitants (we have only one cake and we are 22 so.....who gets the biggest share? ). So if a new band of strong criminals arrives in Everlund I suspect that this will prompt a gang-war. But probably with a gang-war all the party in the conflict will suffer some casualties. The strongest will prevail but for a while they will be weaker...easier for the players to win. However, as I write, a plan has come to my mind: maybe in the recent past there was a gang-war between "homegrown" criminals and some "foreign" criminals are trying to intrude themselves...... Any suggestion on the origin of this "foreign" criminals?
-Depending on how entrenched and established said foreign powers are, the amount of explanation as to their effect on the politics and power structure of the city/area will vary. If they are firmly entrenched, their impact will be greater. If they are still relative newcomers, their impact has yet to be felt.
-As for ideas, like Erik said, there's the Zhents and Thayvians. I would add the Cult of the Dragon (who's cells deal in a lot of trafficking of illegal goods, such as drugs), or- and probably the best option- make something up. I say that is the best option because it'll give you 100% flexibility to shape things as you like. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:43:56
quote:
Originally posted by frapast1981
However, as I write, a plan has come to my mind: maybe in the recent past there was a gang-war between "homegrown" criminals and some "foreign" criminals are trying to intrude themselves...... Any suggestion on the origin of this "foreign" criminals?
I have a suggestion, just make one up! Not every criminals has to be either zent,red wizard or of the people of the black blood. It can simply be a regroupment of fairly powerful individuals who have decided that everlund is their new center of power (ok, they really have been pushed out of Silverymoon, but they won't tell you that ). Oh and that powerful, charismatic leader? He can be a Pit fiend. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:38:25
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Just some thoughts, because this is a good, solid setup you've got (and Everlund is one of my favorite cities):
To build on what Dag just said--you might consider having conspirators from foreign powers (like Zhents or Thayans) seeking to control Everlund's government, eliminate good agents in the city (Harpers, Silverymoon ambassadors), destabilize the Silver Marches compact (depending on when your game is set), etc., etc. These out-of-city operatives could be pretty high level indeed--possibly the zhents could have sent/hired a rival adventuring party to do their dirty work.
You might have the PCs caught between two groups of thieves (local and foreign) vying for control of Everlund.
As for how many folk in the city are involved in organized crime . . . well, suit it to the needs of your campaign. Everlund is a civilized city, but this is the Savage Frontier, so you should have as many full-time criminals (actually classed rogues or just commoners who do a little thievery) and/or part-time criminals (normally shopkeepers, but they'll do a little dirty dealing/concealing fugitives on the side) as you need. You're going to have at least one "guild leader" sort of figure, who can be up to higher level than the PCs (say 13-14), a series of lieutenants (say 6 rogues/PrC of the same level as the PCs, 10-11), and a goodly number of powerful thugs (levels 7-9).
I respect your desire to keep the enemy power level low . . . but when you've got 11th level PCs, you're going to have to build up your enemies' powerset a little. Don't worry about the "if the city has this many powerful people, why aren't they a more dominant power in the region?" These are criminals, and don't generally work toward the good of the city, and neither are they terribly united.
Also, adventurers are notoriously untrustworthy--they could as well be heroes as thieves themselves. After there's been some probably negative interaction with the gangs, consider framing the PCs or otherwise pitting them against the powers that be, forcing them to negotiate with the same gangs they were beating up for protection/succor.
Also, consider putting in monstrous humanoid enemies, or enemies that at least *look* humanoid in the form they are using to infiltrate the city. Shape-changing dragons are fun, doppelgangers, devils, and don't forget Maulagrym. A campaign utilizing rogues trying to exert control over a city could find excellent places for the shapechanging children of Maulag.
Cheers
Wise words sir, as usual  . I agree about building up your enemies' powerset a little. Remember, there's only one goal, it's to have fun. |
| frapast1981 |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:35:39
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Something to keep in mind, that allows you to completely throw out and ignore all of those numbers that were mentioned: Criminals don't need to be "homegrown". You can include criminals from other places, who happen to be in Everlund, or are expanding their turf to Everlund, or whatever else. In this case, you don't have to necessarily follow the statistics for Everlund, since these individuals would be exceptions to the rule.
Thank you Dagnirion
your suggestion is interesting. But with your answer comes more question from me: I need to find a way to integrate this new criminals in Everlund. I think that a city, like any other environment, has a limited amount of energy to share between his inhabitants (we have only one cake and we are 22 so.....who gets the biggest share? ). So if a new band of strong criminals arrives in Everlund I suspect that this will prompt a gang-war. But probably with a gang-war all the party in the conflict will suffer some casualties. The strongest will prevail but for a while they will be weaker...easier for the players to win. However, as I write, a plan has come to my mind: maybe in the recent past there was a gang-war between "homegrown" criminals and some "foreign" criminals are trying to intrude themselves...... Any suggestion on the origin of this "foreign" criminals? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:30:09
Just some thoughts, because this is a good, solid setup you've got (and Everlund is one of my favorite cities):
To build on what Dag just said--you might consider having conspirators from foreign powers (like Zhents or Thayans) seeking to control Everlund's government, eliminate good agents in the city (Harpers, Silverymoon ambassadors), destabilize the Silver Marches compact (depending on when your game is set), etc., etc. These out-of-city operatives could be pretty high level indeed--possibly the zhents could have sent/hired a rival adventuring party to do their dirty work.
You might have the PCs caught between two groups of thieves (local and foreign) vying for control of Everlund.
As for how many folk in the city are involved in organized crime . . . well, suit it to the needs of your campaign. Everlund is a civilized city, but this is the Savage Frontier, so you should have as many full-time criminals (actually classed rogues or just commoners who do a little thievery) and/or part-time criminals (normally shopkeepers, but they'll do a little dirty dealing/concealing fugitives on the side) as you need. You're going to have at least one "guild leader" sort of figure, who can be up to higher level than the PCs (say 13-14), a series of lieutenants (say 6 rogues/PrC of the same level as the PCs, 10-11), and a goodly number of powerful thugs (levels 7-9).
I respect your desire to keep the enemy power level low . . . but when you've got 11th level PCs, you're going to have to build up your enemies' powerset a little. Don't worry about the "if the city has this many powerful people, why aren't they a more dominant power in the region?" These are criminals, and don't generally work toward the good of the city, and neither are they terribly united.
Also, adventurers are notoriously untrustworthy--they could as well be heroes as thieves themselves. After there's been some probably negative interaction with the gangs, consider framing the PCs or otherwise pitting them against the powers that be, forcing them to negotiate with the same gangs they were beating up for protection/succor.
Also, consider putting in monstrous humanoid enemies, or enemies that at least *look* humanoid in the form they are using to infiltrate the city. Shape-changing dragons are fun, doppelgangers, devils, and don't forget Maulagrym. A campaign utilizing rogues trying to exert control over a city could find excellent places for the shapechanging children of Maulag.
Cheers |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:29:20
quote:
Originally posted by frapast1981
Thank you Kilvan
your explanation is clear and straight to the point.
I two other questions for you (and for everibody else interested):
1) So how many people in a city like Everlund will be part of the organized crime?
2)when your players reach the 10-11 level what do you usually send against them? I'm asking this because I prefer to use Humanoid as enemies for my players.
Glad I'm able to help.
1) I never used or read about everlund so much, but I know it's part of the lord's alliance. Knowing this, I think that criminality is fairly low, and even then, that thief guild leader might not be such a bad guy. A CN thief guild works quite well in those parts. These are not assassins, like the shadow thieves of Amn tend to be, they are more like "We want an easy life, with lots of commodity, even if we have to steal it from ya, don't make me hurt you".
2) I know what you mean, really. Evil outsiders always fit against any kind of PC. Devils or demon, your pick. Hell, you can even go for those yugoloth that I never use. Then all the monstrous humanoid with enhanced levels can be deadly at any level. A well placed dragon always works, but don't abuse it.
Level 10-11 is a cross-road in my campaign, as the PC becomes stuck in a situation that they did not choose, like that ring you got from that wizards years ago was not really his.. and it was more powerful than you thought. Oh yeah, now the original owners, the mindflayers, they want it back. It's the end of the random save-the-mayor's-daughter-from-the-orcs-then-get-a-reward-and-move-on-to-the-next-village. They now have an impact around them, an impact they can no longer control, and they start to realise it. Power is not always cool for PC  . With great power comes great responsibility (ahem, yeah that's from me, don't believe anyone who says differently).
Of yeah, level 10-11 is also a good time for a lil tournament. Make about 10-12 npc, and make a tournament dragonball-like, it's always fun. It's also a good way to introduce new villains/allies/elminster-shape-changed-who-as-been-taking-interest-in-you-for-a-while-now.
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:09:39
-Something to keep in mind, that allows you to completely throw out and ignore all of those numbers that were mentioned: Criminals don't need to be "homegrown". You can include criminals from other places, who happen to be in Everlund, or are expanding their turf to Everlund, or whatever else. In this case, you don't have to necessarily follow the statistics for Everlund, since these individuals would be exceptions to the rule. |
| frapast1981 |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:01:12
Thank you Kilvan
your explanation is clear and straight to the point.
I two other questions for you (and for everibody else interested):
1) So how many people in a city like Everlund will be part of the organized crime?
2)when your players reach the 10-11 level what do you usually send against them? I'm asking this because I prefer to use Humanoid as enemies for my players.
|
| Kilvan |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 13:23:33
Ok, since everlund is in a savage zone, constantly threaten by trolls, giants and hordes of orcs or goblins, I'd say that the average city guard/militia is easily level 2-4. This makes levels 5-6 less unusual (about a fifth of the total militia), let’s call those "elite" guards, wizards and priest fits well in that type. 1/25 of the militia can be "leaders" of level 7 to 12, many with PrC levels and customized gear. Overall, I'd say to 5-7% is part of this militia, so from 600 to 840.
The city gang now, I'd say cut everything by 3 or 4, depending of how "chaotic" you view Everlund. That's how I usually portrait a city this size.
Edit: I know that normally, level 1 are more usual, I tend to consider commoners as level 1.
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| frapast1981 |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 13:05:33
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by frapast1981
I like to create "realistic" adventure (not too much over-powered enemies) and I don't think it's realistic that in a city there are too many powerful thieves (I think that a thief of 6 level is quite powerful!).
I guess it depends of the average level of the city guards. As for the best way to prepare an encounter, many more factors must be taken into account. Is it gonna be the only fight for the day? Do you expect spellcasters to give all they got?
I think that 6 enemies of level 6 will be no match at all for 4 PC level 11. I'd say 1 leader* level 10-11, 2 caster level 8-9, then 6 regular rogue level 5-6. That should be a good one-fight-for-the-day, considering that your PC know what they are doing.
I don't think that level 6 is so unusual or powerful , so is level 10-11.
* a good rogue leader can be a rogue/invisible blade from complete warrior
Thank you Kilvan
I will explain the situation better: I don't like single encounter per day, because this usually leads to spellhurler being more powerful than intended. I plan to give them something like 4 or five encounters per day, but there will be situation in which they will use their skills (like: gather information, bluff, diplomacy and so on). So they will not fight every day. I plan to have this plot develop in 4 or 5 days, maybe more. However your idea for the encounter is a good one, and, if it's ok for you, I plan to borrow it and use in the final confrontation.
My point is to think "realisticaly" and "omogenously" to the tapestry of the city population. What do you think would be an adeguate example of the town militia? (I mean militia with duties of law enforcement).
Rocco |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 12:31:12
quote:
Originally posted by frapast1981
I like to create "realistic" adventure (not too much over-powered enemies) and I don't think it's realistic that in a city there are too many powerful thieves (I think that a thief of 6 level is quite powerful!).
I guess it depends of the average level of the city guards. As for the best way to prepare an encounter, many more factors must be taken into account. Is it gonna be the only fight for the day? Do you expect spellcasters to give all they got?
I think that 6 enemies of level 6 will be no match at all for 4 PC level 11. I'd say 1 leader* level 10-11, 2 caster level 8-9, then 6 regular rogue level 5-6. That should be a good one-fight-for-the-day, considering that your PC know what they are doing.
I don't think that level 6 is so unusual or powerful , so is level 10-11.
* a good rogue leader can be a rogue/invisible blade from complete warrior |
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