| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Darkhund |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 04:18:09
Just looking for some other opinions on this.
If a god's worshipers were to, in large numbers (forming a majority, compared to other alignments) all be one alignment, while the god is another.
lets say, Malar, CE, suddenly gets a very large following of CN (of both clerics and lay worshipers naming him their patron) As their power depends on the prayers, would that influence THEM to slowly shift towards that alignment? Or is that more 'fluid' for a god than most prefer? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Arioch |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 18:57:22
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What's strange about my explanation?
-It is a response to my assertional that it is just as likely for the Risen Sun heresy to spread, become the mainstream, and cause Lathander to transform as it is for Bane to attempt to kill Lathander, causing Lathander to defend himself, and accidentally absorb some of Bane's lawfulness, making him more lawful, and causing him to take the name Amaunator, to trick Bane into thinking he had successfully killed Lathander, giving him time to plan how to get back at Bane without being interrupted. Having no information on the matter in the 104 transitional years, anything is possible.
Sorry for my english 
Dagnirion you are right. I was also pointing to some of the explaination hinted for well-known major recent events ...
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 18:30:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What's strange about my explanation?
-It is a response to my assertional that it is just as likely for the Risen Sun heresy to spread, become the mainstream, and cause Lathander to transform as it is for Bane to attempt to kill Lathander, causing Lathander to defend himself, and accidentally absorb some of Bane's lawfulness, making him more lawful, and causing him to take the name Amaunator, to trick Bane into thinking he had successfully killed Lathander, giving him time to plan how to get back at Bane without being interrupted. Having no information on the matter in the 104 transitional years, anything is possible. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 18:24:44
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Leaving everybody just in front of the three choices... And, I beg your pardon, I prefer thinking that we now have Aumaunautor because of an Heresy than because some other "strange" explaination! 
What's strange about my explanation? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 18:00:40
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
I agree on some of your points, not on others... My theory is that a change in alignment because of the faithful is VERY RARE but plausible.
-I agree that it is something that is possible, and something that would be a rare occurrence. I just don't agree that a small faction, like the Risen Sun heretics would be enough for a deity to transform to more closely match/mirror, when the majority (non-heretics) believe something else. Were the Risen Sun faction much larger in scope, I'd lean a lot more towards the conclusion that you arrived to, that Lathander transformed into Amauntator because of the clergymen and women of the Risen Sun faction. |
| Arioch |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 17:36:50
I love this discussion!
I agree on some of your points, not on others... My theory is that a change in alignment because of the faithful is VERY RARE but plausible.
My assumpions about the option Lathander may have choosen seems supported by the title of the sub-chapter :
"EXAMPLE: ASCENSION OF AUMANATOR"  pag. 58
But of course this could mean nothing, after all the discussion about the outcome of the whole affaire is not stated. I think is up to the DM to decide:
Last entry of the timeline (pag 61)
"... the leaders of the faith are hesitant to act, seeking a sign from the Morninglord about wheter or not there is some truth behind the Risen Sun Heresy."
Leaving everybody just in front of the three choices... And, I beg your pardon, I prefer thinking that we now have Aumaunautor because of an Heresy than because some other "strange" explaination! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 17:12:35
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Mmm...Not agreed. See under Risen Sun Heresy, Power of Faerun, pag. 47
-Quenthel Baenre also believed that Lolth was calling her to the Demonweb Pits, to be her Yorthae (Sp?). We all know how that didn't work out for her, despite what she believed her goddess was telling her.
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Not so simple, I think, given all the trouble the leaders of the leading churches of the faith go though in meetings and diplomacy.
And heresies spreads...
-Nothing indicates this, which is why I believe you are putting too much on assumptions. Power of Faerūn seems to indicate that the followers of Sunlord Orndeir are contained mostly to Elversuit area. Paul Kemp's last novel also went on this basis, as Abelar, a proper Lathanderite Cleric is "free" from the "taint" of the Risen Sun heresy, demonstrating, again, that it was mostly contained to this area. I don't think it would be "crazy" to believe that the heresy spread, but nothing indicates that it was. There's 104 years of nothingness between 3e and 4e, but the heresy is just as likely to spread, become the mainstream, and cause Lathander to transform as it is for Bane to attempt to kill Lathander, causing Lathander to defend himself, and accidentally absorb some of Bane's lawfulness, making him more lawful, and causing him to take the name Amaunator, to trick Bane into thinking he had successfully killed Lathander, giving him time to plan how to get back at Bane without being interrupted.
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Again qouting from Power of Faerun page 45:
"For example, if a sect emerges within the church of Lathander preacing that the Morninglord is Aumanator reborn, then Lathander has one of three options:
1) He can embrace the new belief, thus making it true;
2) He can effectively ignore the new belief, thus allowing diversity to persist within the faith and weaken the absoluteness of his authority
3) He can reject the new belief as heresy, thus splitting the ranks of his followers and reducing his divine strenght"
-You seem to be assuming that Lathander chose option 1. All of the facts in the books point to Lathander doing 2 or 3, as the people who believed in the Risen Sun were labeled heretics by Lathander's mainstream church. If the believers of the Risen Sun had it right, why would Lathander tolerate his mainstream church "going after" the Risen Sun heretics (or other heretics)? In Thay, there is a cult that believes that Shar and Lolth are one. Both Shar and Lolth refuted this, and instructed their respective churches to ignore the charlatans who were preaching this concept (and presumably, kill them, being that this is Shar and Lolth we're talking about). In this case, Lathander's mainstream church is regarding the Risen Sun heretics with suspicion and dislike. If they "had it right", why wouldn't Lathander instruct his church to leave the Risen Sun heretics alone? Why wouldn't Lathander instruct his church that the Risen Sun heretics had it right?
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
After all AO stated it clearly after the ToT that the power of the deities will become linked to their follower...
-Not in the way that you seem to be applying it, no. Ao's decree stated that deities were going to have the faith of their worshippers factored into their own divine strength. The equation that calculated a deity's strength went from:
P = W + P1 + P2...
became
P = [(W1xF) + [W2xf)...] + P1 + p2...
where
P= Power
W= Worshiper
F= Fervor
P= Portfolio |
| Arioch |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 16:48:45
quote:
-Nothing states that the Lathanderite heretics knew that Lathander was going to transform, and that their belief was what transformed him into Amaunator.
Mmm...Not agreed. See under Risen Sun Heresy, Power of Faerun, pag. 47
quote:
Indeed, were it the case that worshipers transformed the deity, Lathander would have stayed Lathander, because his mainstream church believed him to be Lathander, and Lathander only. Only a few small groups of heretics believed Lathander to be things other than Lathander.
Not so simple, I think, given all the trouble the leaders of the leading churches of the faith go though in meetings and diplomacy.
And heresies spreads...
quote:
-With that in mind, Lathander's transformation seems coincidental, rather than something constructed by his followers. Because, again, were it determined by his worshipers, he would have stayed Lathander, based on the fact that his mainstream church was against the various heresies out there, while only a minority believed in them.
Again qouting from Power of Faerun page 45:
"For example, if a sect emerges within the church of Lathander preacing that the Morninglord is Aumanator reborn, then Lathander has one of three options:
1) He can embrace the new belief, thus making it true;
2) He can effectively ignore the new belief, thus allowing diversity to persist within the faith and weaken the absoluteness of his authority
3) He can reject the new belief as heresy, thus splitting the ranks of his followers and reducing his divine strenght"
After all AO stated it clearly after the ToT that the power of the deities will become linked to their follower...
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| Arioch |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 16:21:19
quote:
I'd say it's more likely that the transformation was nigh already, or had already begun. How else would a cleric have that knowledge? And better, how would he have cast the spell without his deity knowing what he wanted to do with it?
I see your position as a bit deterministic, but nonetheless interesting and, of course maybe you are right... (we are all simply sharing opinions, after all)
From my point of view it could be possible that such an inspiration for Daelegoth comes directly from the intrinsic nature of his god:
Being the god of Renewal, always trying to work for rebirth and renewal ... he simply cannot stop his cleric from doing something so closely tied with his portfolio. More: new ideas are also porfolio of the Morning Lord... and the Risen Sun heresy is not the only notable heresy in the church.
Not wanting to be misunderstood but, given again the due differences, it seems similar to the fact that Mystra learned she cannot deny the use of magic to someone she simply doesn't like... (but I know everything about Mystra is always much debated) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 15:58:41
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Sorry but I don't agree with you.
When I said "with the due differences" I simply meant that mortals/followers can somehow influence a god life:
"The sunlord [Daelegoth Orndeir]is convinced that such a display [that of an epic spell he was planning to cast] would convince tha majority of the faithful in the church of Lathander that the time of the Morninglord's transformation into Aumanator is nigh ... "
"In effect, by creating the belief that the transformation is imminent, Daelegoth hopes to precipitate an actual transformation."
Power of Faerun Pag. 58
Given the fact that the transformation indeed happened, I guessed that it is *somehow* related with the presence in the church of too many heretics supporting the idea of Lathander as Aumanator.
Again *somehow*... Is up to the DM to decide how much/how/etc...
-Nothing states that the Lathanderite heretics knew that Lathander was going to transform, and that their belief was what transformed him into Amaunator. Indeed, were it the case that worshipers transformed the deity, Lathander would have stayed Lathander, because his mainstream church believed him to be Lathander, and Lathander only. Only a few small groups of heretics believed Lathander to be things other than Lathander.
-With that in mind, Lathander's transformation seems coincidental, rather than something constructed by his followers. Because, again, were it determined by his worshipers, he would have stayed Lathander, based on the fact that his mainstream church was against the various heresies out there, while only a minority believed in them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 15:43:04
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
VERY difficult but not impossible for a god to change alignment because of his/her own followers. A good proof for this is the Lathander/Aumanator event, (of course with the due differences).
-This wouldn't be an example of what is being discussed. While the followers of the Risen Sun heresy did indeed believe that Lathander was Amaunator, and they did turn out to be right- only in the sense that Lathander became Amaunator- keep in mind that these individual were heretics. They only made up a small minority of the total church of Lathander as a whole. As such, keeping to the idea that what the deity's followers believe influences the deity itself, Lathander would still be Lathander. In closing, his transformation, then, seems totally independent of these heretics.
Sorry but I don't agree with you.
When I said "with the due differences" I simply meant that mortals/followers can somehow influence a god life:
"The sunlord [Daelegoth Orndeir]is convinced that such a display [that of an epic spell he was planning to cast] would convince tha majority of the faithful in the church of Lathander that the time of the Morninglord's transformation into Aumanator is nigh ... "
"In effect, by creating the belief that the transformation is imminent, Daelegoth hopes to precipitate an actual transformation."
Power of Faerun Pag. 58
Given the fact that the transformation indeed happened, I guessed that it is *somehow* related with the presence in the church of too many heretics supporting the idea of Lathander as Aumanator.
Again *somehow*... Is up to the DM to decide how much/how/etc...
I'd say it's more likely that the transformation was nigh already, or had already begun. How else would a cleric have that knowledge? And better, how would he have cast the spell without his deity knowing what he wanted to do with it? |
| Arioch |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 13:23:43
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
VERY difficult but not impossible for a god to change alignment because of his/her own followers. A good proof for this is the Lathander/Aumanator event, (of course with the due differences).
-This wouldn't be an example of what is being discussed. While the followers of the Risen Sun heresy did indeed believe that Lathander was Amaunator, and they did turn out to be right- only in the sense that Lathander became Amaunator- keep in mind that these individual were heretics. They only made up a small minority of the total church of Lathander as a whole. As such, keeping to the idea that what the deity's followers believe influences the deity itself, Lathander would still be Lathander. In closing, his transformation, then, seems totally independent of these heretics.
Sorry but I don't agree with you.
When I said "with the due differences" I simply meant that mortals/followers can somehow influence a god life:
"The sunlord [Daelegoth Orndeir]is convinced that such a display [that of an epic spell he was planning to cast] would convince tha majority of the faithful in the church of Lathander that the time of the Morninglord's transformation into Aumanator is nigh ... "
"In effect, by creating the belief that the transformation is imminent, Daelegoth hopes to precipitate an actual transformation."
Power of Faerun Pag. 58
Given the fact that the transformation indeed happened, I guessed that it is *somehow* related with the presence in the church of too many heretics supporting the idea of Lathander as Aumanator.
Again *somehow*... Is up to the DM to decide how much/how/etc... |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 18:55:28
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
*that's not even true, LE doesn't exist anymore in 4th, no comments
It does exist, it's just lumped in with "evil".
Yeah I know. I just strongly disagree with the new alignment system, cutting the subtlety between LE and NE (or any other alignment they removed), like many others. But there has been enough topics complaining about the change in 4th, no need to start here. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 18:42:24
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
*that's not even true, LE doesn't exist anymore in 4th, no comments
It does exist, it's just lumped in with "evil". |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 16:50:24
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
VERY difficult but not impossible for a god to change alignment because of his/her own followers. A good proof for this is the Lathander/Aumanator event, (of course with the due differences).
-This wouldn't be an example of what is being discussed. While the followers of the Risen Sun heresy did indeed believe that Lathander was Amaunator, and they did turn out to be right- only in the sense that Lathander became Amaunator- keep in mind that these individual were heretics. They only made up a small minority of the total church of Lathander as a whole. As such, keeping to the idea that what the deity's followers believe influences the deity itself, Lathander would still be Lathander. In closing, his transformation, then, seems totally independent of these heretics. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 13:56:29
Good question, I never thought of that. This is why I love candlekeep, well part of the reasons  .
I find it easier to imagine an evil god slowly shifting toward neutral to please more followers than a good god. And again, it depends on which deity and on which direction. i.e, I'd have no trouble imagining Helm shifting from LN to LG, but to LE seems less likely. But then Hoar might be more likely to shift to LE* (which he does in 4th ed, no comments) than to LG.
And then, I think Oghma will always be N. If his followers shift too far from that (i.e all evil stops worshiping him), I think he would try to bring THEM back to the "right" way.
Thank you Ed Greenwood for making for a wonderful world!
*that's not even true, LE doesn't exist anymore in 4th, no comments |
| Arioch |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 09:34:18
VERY difficult but not impossible for a god to change alignment because of his/her own followers. A good proof for this is the Lathander/Aumanator event, (of course with the due differences).
I also think it could be interesting having a whole cult with an alignment different from the deity's one. Maybe they revere their god simply out of fear, only hoping to placate his/her wrath with unwanted sacrifices (Evil deities, neutral cultist)... |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 21:27:20
...or just continue to maintain business as usual and suck up the worship of the followers of the differing alignment. They got involved with the god's practices as it was and maintained the different but acceptable alignment. There's no reason for the god to even consider shifting alignment unless his powerbase suddenly threatened to jump ship for a new god that they found more acceptable.
For example, if the LE god's LN followers are suddenly introduced to a new demigod with similar ideals and practices as their current god... but without the evil influence, they might likely start worshipping this newer power and the LE god would have to either accept the loss, do something to make switching worship less appealing, or destroy the rival outright.
The second option is the most likely of scenarios, in my opinion. Gods don't seem like the type to want to change to suit their worshippers (maybe over many centuries, out of necessity), and destroying rivals may be preferable but require too much effort. Thus, making change less desirable seems like the best way to go. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 18:25:23
-Personally, no, I would not rule that the alignment of the deity changes. What you could have, in theory, if you wanted to do it, is have the deity "split" and manifest a new aspect, that is more in line with the new worshipers. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 08:19:51
I'm not sure I agree that followers shift to the alignment of the diety they worship.
If a LE power has LE and LN worshipers...and suddenly the nation where the majority of his LE followers reside all got massacred in war to never be replaced...he may shift his alignment to the base of his power.
Just a what if though...not saying I'm right. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 08:05:49
The alignment of the god affects the way he "does business" and in this way the rituals and behaviour of the followers would be "dictated". So if Malar is CE and a bunch of CN people join his followers I would think its more likely the followers change to CE than Malar changing his alignment. |
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