| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 00:44:30
Hi
Does anyone have stats on "Vecna" I know he is a diety now, but i want his "mortal" stats... |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 05:21:22
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Vecna = Vance! 
BRIMSTONE 
Exactly.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 00:33:26
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now I'm picturing Larloch operating a lot like Dr. Doom of Marvel comics fame. No-one ever knew if they were dealing with the real-deal, or some android/clone.
No, no... Manshoon and his clones are like Doctor Doom. Larloch is kinda like Doctor Strange, after his being was seperated into multiple avatar-like constructs that sought to gain access to all Earth-bound forms of magic and magical items. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 18:29:38
-Vecna = Vance!
BRIMSTONE |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 18:11:47
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I'd also like to know if Szass actually spoke to the real Larloch, or only to one of his front-liches.
You know, this is EXACTLY the reason why I participate in forums like this one and WotC.
They help me get my 'evil' on. 
Now I'm picturing Larloch operating a lot like Dr. Doom of Marvel comics fame. No-one ever knew if they were dealing with the real-deal, or some android/clone.
This thread also lead me to some VERY deep, over-aching 'primordial' plothooks, involving the Creator Races, and five "Racial Chosen" (for lack of a better term).
I love getting inspiration from all of these threads. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 17:54:24
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Perhaps 'unmotivated' is the wrong word. Perhaps 'unfathomable'? He doesn't send armies or throw his political weight around. He applies vast power in ways that do not appear to be immediately advantageous, at least without knowing exactly what he's trying to accomplish. It's difficult to suss out something that is apparently completely apolitical. Compare that to Vecna, who is pretty much non-stop trying to take over the world.
I agree with you. In more than 1000 years Larloch has apparently done only one thing which significantly extends his power outward from Warlock's Crypt, and that was to give Szass Tam the Death Moon Orb and Thakorsil's Seat, but what role they play in his schemes (or whether he gave them away in a fit of insanity) we don't know. The Sage's oft-repeated answer that Larloch wants to know who comes and who goes and where suggests to me that he was trying to keep track of Eltab, but for what reason I don't know.
I'd also like to know if Szass actually spoke to the real Larloch, or only to one of his front-liches.
I haven't seen Brian's undead book yet (), but at the moment I am going to stick with suggesting Wikipedia and Dragon 348 as handy sources on Vecna. Deities and Demigods presents the stats of Vecna's avatar.
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| Neil |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 16:17:43
Perhaps 'unmotivated' is the wrong word. Perhaps 'unfathomable'? He doesn't send armies or throw his political weight around. He applies vast power in ways that do not appear to be immediately advantageous, at least without knowing exactly what he's trying to accomplish. It's difficult to suss out something that is apparently completely apolitical. Compare that to Vecna, who is pretty much non-stop trying to take over the world. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 17:57:01
IMG, Larloch's got both the hand and Eye of Vecna, and he's using both to power a modified Artifurnace.
I have used Ed's hints to devlop my own storyline around him, and now I need to figure out what part the Eminence of Araunt plays in all this. <we need an 'evil plotting' smiley>
What Old Sage says interests me greatly as well - it sounds like Larloch is trying to do a lot of what Halaster accomplished in undermountain, but on a much wider scale.
Which leaves me to imagine all sorts of 'fanfic' about Halaster and Larloch exchanging notes (like Larloch and Szass Tam did). In fact, if Halaster was also a Netherease Archmage (and there's no reason why he couldn't be, if the Terraseer was), I could see his Imaskari-born Portal Knowledge being of great use to him, and perhaps he was even one of of Larloch's teachers early on.
All sorts of fun things to muse about in the Old realms.  |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 14:18:23
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Will this be his divine stats or mortal stats... ?
Open Grave represents Vecna in his current state, as a divine being. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 04:45:13
Oo! Oo! I got it!
The second copy of the Nether Scrolls!
Either that, or the DVD release of the Star Wars Christmas Special... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 04:29:10
I also want to point out that Ed has now twice indicated that Larloch is guarding something...
quote:
To Wooly Rupert: when you post sentences like this one: And though I can't think of any evidence to support it, it's not impossible that part of what Larloch is doing is containing something... be aware that you are (ahem) VERY perceptive.
quote:
Larloch is guarding against something, but just what, is decidedly NDA.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 01:16:10
Put me down with the "Larloch is extremely motivated" part of the discussion.
Ed's answers imply that Larloch MAY have some plots, but if he does, they're so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are.
One of his current 'plots' revolves around controlling portals and portal networks throughout Faerūn. He's looking at controlling the gates indirectly. In the sense that he'll be doing a couple of things:-
1. Monitoring people movement; who goes where and more importantly, why;
2. Putting in place magics to control creatures or people using 'his' portals, or at the very least access their knowledge/memories;
3. Using his knowledge of portals and portal networks to bring groups or individuals into conflict and thereby benefiting from the fallout.
All of this is intended to be done without the hand of Larloch being apparent.
Sounds like motivation to me! |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 23:20:32
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm honestly not so sure pre-godhood Vecna could take on Larloch... Larloch is insanely powerful; he could prolly take on a deity himself.
I have a tendency to agree. Then again, they're totally different kinds of liches. Larloch is curious, unstable, and tremendously unmotivated. Vecna, on the other hand, is acquisitive, scheming and extremely direct. Vecna builds churches, empires and other such structures to control his environment, while Larloch commands his small group of subordinates by completely overwhelming them with raw force of being. Larloch is largely detached and beyond human concerns, like an ancient, undead Dr. Manhattan, while Vecna revels in evil and cruelty for it's own sake.
Even if you assume that Vecna is Larloch's equal in terms of raw power, Larloch's nature would make it very difficult for Vecna to succesfully engage and destroy him.
I must disagree that Larloch is "tremendously unmotivated;" Larloch is extremely "motivated," but his motivation is his own, and it isn't necessarily one that would be of interest to others. I don't recall ever seeing anyone suggest what I think is the most likely reason that Szass Tam was able to leave Warlock's Tower not simply alive, but with two artifact-level magic items*: he approached Larloch with something of interest to Larloch, which he alone may have been able to provide: details of how Eltab was brought to Toril "in the flesh" (so to speak) and kept here, which may then have prompted Larloch's interest in having the quaint little Thayan lich try to imprison and command Eltab. Larloch is interested in transdimensional travel; he might want to know what is involved in enslaving an Abyssal lord so that he can avoid such a fate happening to himself should he ever leave Toril.
Larloch would be fascinated by Vecna, I'm sure (and I don't mean with the spell or an extraordinary or spell-like ability!): Vecna escaped from the Demiplane of Chaos and hied himself to Sigil, where he escaped the Lady of Pain (it is not said that Azalin did such a thing, even if he succeeded in leaving his domain). Nobody escapes the Lady of Pain -- or hasn't until now. If Vecna did it, he must be one bad-ass indeed!
* Szass may also have learned the spell mage-tunnel from Larloch. I shall ask Ed if that's the case.
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| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 15:48:27
Will this be his divine stats or mortal stats... ?
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| Brian R. James |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 06:04:15
If you're interested, Vecna's 4E stats will be revealed in Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead, coming in January. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 02:15:48
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I've never been convinced by any of the post-Gygaxian (though he was originally made up by Brian Blume) depictions of Vecna. I think he works much better as a word of terror than as a character, certainly than as a god.
Like Orcus -- or any character, really -- no statting of him will satisfy all that many people, either in the abstract or for the needs of a campaign.
Thumbs up. I've never been a fan of defining "name" NPCs rigorously in terms of game mechanics myself. But, in all fairness, it goes back to the beginning--in "Gygaxian" days (love the term), we knew how many hit points Cthulu had! |
| Neil |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 02:09:25
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I've never been convinced by any of the post-Gygaxian (though he was originally made up by Brian Blume) depictions of Vecna. I think he works much better as a word of terror than as a character, certainly than as a god.
I certainly found him more compelling as ancient lore rather than as a god. I was excited about Vecna Lives!, but I agree that bringing Vecna into common play has cheapened him. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 01:50:30
I've never been convinced by any of the post-Gygaxian (though he was originally made up by Brian Blume) depictions of Vecna. I think he works much better as a word of terror than as a character, certainly than as a god.
Like Orcus -- or any character, really -- no statting of him will satisfy all that many people, either in the abstract or for the needs of a campaign. |
| Neil |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 01:30:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm honestly not so sure pre-godhood Vecna could take on Larloch... Larloch is insanely powerful; he could prolly take on a deity himself.
I have a tendency to agree. Then again, they're totally different kinds of liches. Larloch is curious, unstable, and tremendously unmotivated. Vecna, on the other hand, is acquisitive, scheming and extremely direct. Vecna builds churches, empires and other such structures to control his environment, while Larloch commands his small group of subordinates by completely overwhelming them with raw force of being. Larloch is largely detached and beyond human concerns, like an ancient, undead Dr. Manhattan, while Vecna revels in evil and cruelty for it's own sake.
Even if you assume that Vecna is Larloch's equal in terms of raw power, Larloch's nature would make it very difficult for Vecna to succesfully engage and destroy him. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 22:44:02
About that Manshoon guy... my char killed Manshoon two weeks ago... he did not seem that powerful to me... it took me about 8 runds.
My DM even made him stronger than how he is presented in FRCS. I was disapointed to find him that easy... I mean im only lvl 15 wizard/5 arcane avatar/2 Arch mage. But he was nothing! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 15:03:05
I'm honestly not so sure pre-godhood Vecna could take on Larloch... Larloch is insanely powerful; he could prolly take on a deity himself. And powerful enough to challenge gods on one world doesn't mean powerful enough to challenge gods elsewhere -- Raistlin was only 19th level. He was powerful enough to take on Takhisis, but Manshoon prolly could have dealt with him. Elminster or the Simbul certainly could have. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 11:45:58
Ok... yes thats pretty damn powerful. But if 40 lvls is "way to weak" he must have been able to challenge the greater gods. But I was hoping for some enlightenment on his mortal stats. Well if he could take on Larloch he could have been as it says in DMG 3.0 perhaps the strongest spellcaster of all time. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 05:16:17
Vecna is the cover god of Dragon 348, October 2006.
In Deities and Demigods (no "&"), he is W20/C20, which is, I think, far, far too weak. For crying out loud (or screaming in agony), his body parts were considered artifacts long before he became a god. That ain't no ordinary lich!
One or more of his body parts could turn up in the Realms if the Dungeon Magazine "Age of Worms" adventure path is adapted to the Realms.
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| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 02:20:28
Great... If Vecna could take Larloch down, then you are damn bad ass... |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 01:34:01
Look him up on Wikipedia. He's written up in Deities & Demigods (or whatever the 3E god book is called), but the write-up there doesn't do him justice. He was also written up in Dragon in the series on the "core" deities, but, again, it doesn't reveal his whole, sordid history the way the Wikipedia entry does.
He was never a "normal" NPC, the Eye and Hand of Vecna having been artifacts in the original DMG. In any subsequent adventure write-up of him he has always been "above and beyond" any typical NPC, and he should be vastly more powerful than any PC except on waaaay ancient Oerth, which has nothing to do with the Realms. The fact that he is apparently the only Darklord to have ever escaped from the Demiplane of Dread (without consuming most of his domain in an enormous human holocaust, anyway) suggests that he has more class levels than almost any deity except the greatest of the greater deities.
Ed says that it should be impossible for any group of PCs to put Larloch down. Vecna could probably do it by himself.
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