| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 01:34:37
Well met all,
I'd like your opinions on something. First, a bit of background.
I'm going to be running a group of Newbie PCs through the Shadowdale setting that is part of the 2nd Ed. Campaign Setting. The Twisted Tower adventure with this setting has the Drow planning to retake the Tower of Ashaba and Shadowdale in the year 1368. This plan seems patently ridiculous, however, when Elminster could return at anytime and Cormyr is chomping at the bit to expand into the Dales.
Any plan to retake Shadowdale would have to include a way to prevent Elminster from teleporting back to Shadowdale and a way to prevent Suzail from exploiting the opportunity to send the Purple Dragons and annex more territory. I'd like your comments on my plan to make the plot to retake Shadowdale (which the PCs will foil) more plausible. Here's what I've come up with so far:
Semmemon of Darkhold, who wishes to exploit the current instability in Zhentil Keep to strengthen his hand to the east, is coordinating the effort to retake Shadowdale. He is aware of the problems outlined above. To prevent Cormyr's intervention, he plans to create social unrest by destroying crops (locusts, disease, weather), disrupting trade and stirring up age old anti-Suzail sentiment in Arabel. Once this unrest is at its height, he plans to facilitate the return of "the lost king" Gondegal with a mercenary force to "liberate" Arabel. Semmemon does not expect Gondegal to be able to hold Arabel any longer than he did in 1352, he simply wishes to cause enough instability in Cormyr to prevent Azoun IV from sending the Purple Dragons to Shadowdale's aid.
I have not, however, come up with a way for Semmemon or the Drow to prevent Elminster from teleporting back to Shadowdale's aid.
Any ideas, comments, criticism? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 22:40:53
Thanks for the ideas Portella.
Cheers,
Afet |
| Portella |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 22:18:58
you would required to keep the bands of adventures, town guard, knights of myth drannor, storm, the harpers, the druid enclave there, sylune ghost and others from running to shadowdale protection.
to architect that little town end, you will need a lot of information that the zhents can have or already have but remember the zhents are infiltrated to the neck with spys from the harpers, the cult of the dragon, thay etc.
just though about something, there is one group, that the protectors of shadowdale cant or wouldnt turn against is the people of shadowdale. think about that
hit and run tactics are quite good. start some sort of mess in mythdrannor give what ever group in there some present to help keep the knight busy on their duty to keep the place controlled.
for adventures get them out of shadowdale ... give them jobs in caravans or send them to their doom one by one. get them to do your work.
the harpers are different stuff all togheter you cant really use the zhents personnel to pull this off like i said nothing that goes on in zhentil keep or the cidadel of raven goes unnoticed.
make use of very destructive magic like extra dimentional spell like a rope spell (2 level) inside another rope spell that would have the same effect as bag o holding inside of bag of holding. hit and run
didnt they send some harpers to hellgate keep with some crazy artefact the exploded the whole place? have you though of planar help? dopplegangers swap dales ppl polymorph random ppl into dangerous creatures even thoght they can be dispeled that will keep the high ups busy specially if the morphs are being done in different places a the same time. imagem random dales people getting killed by their own ppl before the ppl that can dispel can turn up.
anyway that is some ideas on how to keep ppl busy
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 01:46:38
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Portella
you cant forget that elmister is not the only protector of shadowdale, the harper lead by storm, sylune ghost, the knights of myth drannor etc.
And the town guard.
As well as, depending on the time line, other adventuring bands like Mane's Band, or the druid enclave that was there before the ToT's, etc. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 23:09:07
quote:
Originally posted by Portella
you cant forget that elmister is not the only protector of shadowdale, the harper lead by storm, sylune ghost, the knights of myth drannor etc.
And the town guard. |
| Portella |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 21:15:57
elminsters is not all powerfull, in crown of fire he almost overcharged himself while absorbing and taking all the grunt from the lich lord thaurn while he was channeling the spellfire from shandrill.
another thing, one other person that matches elminster in power is symbul and they are lovers, use that against him for their relationship is quite fragile. you have to remember that they both didnt truste each other for ages. and even now they still have reservations.
force situation that they both disagree with each other pushing them a part. break his alliegencies. |
| Portella |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 21:08:56
simply try something like in elmister in hell, where he cast his silver fire against the shade and opened a gate to hell where he had to cross it close from the other side. force him out.
other thing is to keep him busy make him focus his attention on something else. lure him.
the twisted rune lich that imprisoned halaster used a ring of mutiple wishes to catch halaster, somethign similar could be done.
you cant forget that elmister is not the only protector of shadowdale, the harper lead by storm, sylune ghost, the knights of myth drannor etc.
never forget about larloch, he being know to help ppl before for performing task for him. the guy from thay got two artefacts from him before. may be some one indiferent could help semm. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 15:05:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dezmodu
Ok lets say he's busy, with somthing important, that doesn't mean he's not going to do annything, I meen come on it is his home.
But what if by means of some quick scrying he saw a groupe of semi capable adventures, who already have some knolage of the whole thing, than his way of protecting his home doesn't have to be more than a couple of wel placed magical messages.
just n idea, hope it helps
DeZ
Yep, El, and anyone else for that matter, can often get more done with a well placed word than with a well placed fireball.
Further, El has quite a few, VERY POWERFUL enemies who are almost always keeping an eye out for a time when his pants might be down. If he were to jump into every situation then he wouldn't live very long at all. |
| Dezmodu |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 14:39:09
Ok lets say he's busy, with somthing important, that doesn't mean he's not going to do annything, I meen come on it is his home.
But what if by means of some quick scrying he saw a groupe of semi capable adventures, who already have some knolage of the whole thing, than his way of protecting his home doesn't have to be more than a couple of wel placed magical messages.
just n idea, hope it helps
DeZ |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 13:19:24
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
That is what I´m saying. I really don´t believe that El will stop his work in all realms to aid Shadowdale with all its problems, but I too don´t think El will keeping his studies if SD was in great need.
It TOTALLY depends upon the situation.
Which is handy for a DM, or story teller. |
| IngoDjan |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 06:47:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
All right! In what history he left Shadowdale alone while SD were in danger? If you can remember tell me, cause I can´t.
Granted, he'd prolly stick close to home if the dale was in danger. But unless you're assuming that the dale is under near-constant attacks from someone, then there are plenty of times that El would be off doing something else.
That is what I´m saying. I really don´t believe that El will stop his work in all realms to aid Shadowdale with all its problems, but I too don´t think El will keeping his studies if SD was in great need. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 00:55:34
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
All right! In what history he left Shadowdale alone while SD were in danger? If you can remember tell me, cause I can´t.
Remember, as the Realmslore stands, Elminster is said to be a retired sage whose secretive manipulations and "behind-the-scenes" machinations are generally unknown factors in the public forum, or exist merely as rumors to those learned individuals or political high-ups who "need" to know. Elminster tends to devote most of his time to research, studying other planes, which will usually result in him not being available if PCs come looking for him. It would be inauthentic to portray Elminster as an NPC who would willingly take himself away from his work to handle some problem, or save hundreds on threatened lives, which really isn't how Elminster or the Realms work. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 00:28:31
He was travelling the planes during the major Zhent offensive of 1355 DR (see Polyhedron #83). He seems not to have been in Shadowdale during the Flight of Dragons in 1356 when Syluné died; he may or may not have been involved in the battle against Lyran Nanther. He's elsewhere in the Dales during much of the Godswar, when Shadowdale is under threat. He's caring for a hurt Simbul during the Shadowdale chapter of Silverfall.
This is a substantial fraction of the dangers Shadowdale's known to have weathered in the years Elminster's dwelt there, and shows how needless were his overwrought exeunts in the Archwizards trilogy and Scouring of the Land. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 21:29:50
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
All right! In what history he left Shadowdale alone while SD were in danger? If you can remember tell me, cause I can´t.
Granted, he'd prolly stick close to home if the dale was in danger. But unless you're assuming that the dale is under near-constant attacks from someone, then there are plenty of times that El would be off doing something else. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 21:06:55
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
All right! In what history he left Shadowdale alone while SD were in danger? If you can remember tell me, cause I can�t.
There was that whole "Elminster in Hell" jam.
Then there was the "Shadow of the Avatar" series.
And then there are those novels where El is off in the Realms doing something else, "Spellfire" had some El in it and there are other stories with El somewhere other than Shadowdale (and despite how good El is, when he's not there he isn't protecting the place)
Further, as much of a meddler as El is he doesn't want to stunt the growth of others and swooping in to save the day when someone's lost their kitty up the tree is a sure way to stunt their growth. |
| IngoDjan |
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 20:58:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
In history, he never let Shadowdale alone, since he move there.
Except when he was busy, doing things like fighting Malaugrym, saving kingdoms, hiding magic everywhere for others to find, attending to Harper business, stopping plots against the Obarskyr crown, sleeping with the Simbul, being trapped on another plane, visiting Ed, opposing Zhent plots...
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
El is busy? Ok, maybe. But what is more important than defend your own home?
Plenty. Maintaining the Weave, for example. Saving kingdoms. Preventing the destruction of many, many more homes than just your own. Stopping potential threats before they can destroy the homes of you or others.
All right! In what history he left Shadowdale alone while SD were in danger? If you can remember tell me, cause I can´t. |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 18:56:49
Thanks to all of you for your great ideas and helpful criticisms. It helps to have people´s various opinions on Elminster as I haven´t read many of the novels and have a fairly superficial knowledge of the Realms. A special thanks to THO for the summary of Ed´s scenario.
Cheers,
Afet
|
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 18:37:38
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
The novels are very deceiving in this regard, since they focus mostly on El "saving the day"...
One hears this, but it isn't so. I've read and reread them, and can't think of more than a couple of instances anything like that.
This could just be my perception and I'm not a hardcore realms novel reader so I could just be basing my perception of what's in the novels off of the few I've read and the general comments I've read.
Either way, El is no Superman. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 18:15:10
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Any plan to retake Shadowdale would have to include a way to prevent Elminster from teleporting back to Shadowdale and a way to prevent Suzail from exploiting the opportunity to send the Purple Dragons and annex more territory.
It's no foregone conclusion that Cormyr would risk an adventure into Shadowdale against a foe of unknown strength, especially in the political chaos of the late 1360s DR.quote:
To prevent Cormyr's intervention, he plans to create social unrest by destroying crops (locusts, disease, weather), disrupting trade and stirring up age old anti-Suzail sentiment in Arabel.
This is reasonable.quote:
Once this unrest is at its height, he plans to facilitate the return of "the lost king" Gondegal with a mercenary force to "liberate" Arabel.
This is way overdoing it.quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
El is all powerful.
Of course he isn't.quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
In history, he never let Shadowdale alone, since he move there.
Not only is is often wandering Faerûn, he spends long stretches of time in other worlds and planes. The trick is to know when.quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
The novels are very deceiving in this regard, since they focus mostly on El "saving the day"...
One hears this, but it isn't so. I've read and reread them, and can't think of more than a couple of instances anything like that. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 17:14:26
Further, part of El solving problems is giving a nudge to adventuring groups here and there. It also helps train up a "new guard" since El can't do everything himself.
There's also his limitations to consider, sure he's powerful, sure he's knowledgable but he doesn't know all and can't stop every plot, he misses the lion's share of them when it comes right down to it. The novels are very deceiving in this regard, since they focus mostly on El "saving the day" but that's NOT what his everyday life is like. Unless you want that to be how his life rolls, but that's not canon. :)
I'd also suggest not telling your players where he is, if they ask just tell them they have no clue and you're not sure why they'd think some old sage is going to stop an army of Zhents and Drow. If they start talking about what a powerful mage he is then remind them that their characters barely have a clue as to who El is and their characters most definitely don't know he's a powerful archmage who's a chosen of Mystra. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 16:10:11
I think El considers all the Realms his "home". |
| Aravine |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 16:09:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
El is busy? Ok, maybe. But what is more important than defend your own home?
Plenty. Maintaining the Weave, for example. Saving kingdoms. Preventing the destruction of many, many more homes than just your own. Stopping potential threats before they can destroy the homes of you or others.
Saving the world... reversing time... Wait, that's Superman.
No, in all seriousness, they actually give an example of when El would be busy in the FRCS |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 16:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
In history, he never let Shadowdale alone, since he move there.
Except when he was busy, doing things like fighting Malaugrym, saving kingdoms, hiding magic everywhere for others to find, attending to Harper business, stopping plots against the Obarskyr crown, sleeping with the Simbul, being trapped on another plane, visiting Ed, opposing Zhent plots...
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
El is busy? Ok, maybe. But what is more important than defend your own home?
Plenty. Maintaining the Weave, for example. Saving kingdoms. Preventing the destruction of many, many more homes than just your own. Stopping potential threats before they can destroy the homes of you or others. |
| IngoDjan |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 15:39:51
El is busy? Ok, maybe. But what is more important than defend your own home? I think that if El feel some kind of threat in Shadowdale he will help it. Unless he think that other Shadowdale defender could deal with it. In history, he never let Shadowdale alone, since he move there. And I don´t think he will.
And a question I still can´t respond is "Why Elminster choose Shadowdale to live?". Maybe he like the place, maybe there´s something very important there to defend. I particulary likes the version two, but I´m not sure. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 15:26:26
As it happens, Ed was asked this very same thing at the last GenCon I attended. Here's a precis of his answer:
The Zhentarim {the questioner had a different Zhent in mind than Sememmon, but Ed's answer probably wouldn't change} uses intermediaries to sponsor two different Cormyrean noble families in minor uprisings against the Crown, one in Arabel and one in Marsember. Zhent agents murder an entirely unrelated Purple Dragon officer in Suzail (who was a thorn in their side, anyway), and try to fake evidence to link it to the Marsemban rising. They also start whispering that traitors inside the War Wizards are aiding the traitors. That takes care of Cormyr.
{Sememmon} then goes to work casting spells on all the gates/portals the Zhents can access (notably those in Myth Drannor) that link the Realms with the Nine Hells, so that they will open, one after another in swift succession, at some later time. He also uses some wands of wonder from the Zhent vaults, all aimed at each other in a ring and triggered by a similar sequencing spell, to create the semblance of a wild magic (if no one gets to the wands and disassembles them, it may eventually BECOME a wild magic area). Because of where the majority of these gates are located, {Sememmon} knows Elminster will respond to this. {Sememmon} informs many of El's longtime foes that El will be showing up to deal with this problem at such-and-such a time - - and also spreads word that Szass Tam is behind these gate openings.
Off goes Elminster, hopefully to face enough confusion and opportunistic ambushes to keep him busy for a good long time. {Sememmon} directs his underlings to lead the Zhent ground campaign in the Shadowdale area, while himself concentrating on throwing new challenges at Elminster. The trick being to frame them so the old Mage will consider them HIS responsibility, not something that will draw all of the Chosen in.
So long as lots of magic is being hurled around, remember, this won't particularly bother Azuth or Mystra.
That's more or less what Ed said. I'm missing a few details and a lot of the subtlety, but that's essentially it. With one addition: the Zhents watch this whole mess with an eye to trade exploitation (running weapons to dispute areas, selling food and building materials to those whose homes are wrecked, etc.), so as to gain a lasting benefit.
I recall Ed running Manshoon as an NPC in the "home" campaign, and having him drawl, "Throw the right stick, and the yapping Chosen will always chase it." (Then, when things went wrong and badly wounded underlings dragged themselves to the Big M to report, he'd drawl, "Obviously, that wasn't the right stick."
Hope this helps.
love,
THO |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 15:23:09
Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land is an adventure module, not a novel.
That being said, I agree with those who think you should just have El be "away". |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 15:17:04
Point taken. El is all powerful. It's too bad really. So maybe the best thing to do is assume that the Drow and Semmemon are sacrificing underlings or too stupid and vain to realize that their plan will never work, that they have no realistic hope of holding Shadowdale in the long term. In any case, I wasn't planning to have El's tower actually destroyed. I was planning to have the PCs discover the undermining, and for that matter the entire plot, before it actually takes place. They have already discovered a small piece of the destabilization plan in Cormyr.
AFet. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 15:16:20
I always find the simplest solutions best.
The reason El and company aren't helping is because they're busy.
The reason the Zhents and Drow are going in is because they have a surplus of wealth and manpower and don't really care if they all get blasted to bits. The upper echelons will be fine and if things go well then great, if they go south, well, who cares.
Convenient way to get rid of future rivals too. "Hey there ambitious and talented mageling, go on over to that Shadowdale place and take over."
And that's that.
As for Cormyr, well, depending on the timing of your game you may not have to worry about it. Cormyr had their whole war, they've got scheming nobles if it's during the time before the war (or, if you're going back far enough they could still be recovering from the whole Tuigan horde jam)
Or, if you'd rather, Elminster is really just a sage, Cormyr has less military might than they display due to their nobles reluctance to cede power to Azoun (or there could be some Sembian plots taking up Cormyr's attention, or Westgate's criminal networks trying to operate in Cormyr, etc), Storm is just a pretty voice, etc. :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 14:51:02
All that effort to drop the tower won't amount to anything if he has a gemjump spell cast on a rogue stone that's somewhere nearby, like in the general vicinity of Syluné's hut. And all that is totally moot, anyway, since nothing it stopping him from simply teleporting in or teleporting to a nearby spot.
Dropping the tower may not work, anyway. Elminster is a powerful wizard, so what's to say he doesn't have layers of wards and protective spells piled up on the tower?
It's easier to let him be off doing something on his own, especially since he does that anyway. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 14:27:41
I wouldn't go that far, Afet. El is gone loads of times, so why destroy his tower? If he is busy, he is busy. Not taking any calls and all that.
As for the planning and stuff, those who know Elminster, or know of him, also know that he's not to be trifled with. The Zhents will seize the opportunity to take over Shadowdale when El is away, but to prepare for his return... the best thing they can do is run, and far at that.
The drow might undermine the tower, but why? If they know about Elminster being such a threat they also know what their actions will cost them, for when El returns there will be a reckoning the likes the drow haven't seen before.
IMO, don't do this. Let El be away, and nothing more. You don't have to rationalize that anymore...he is busy.
As for Semmemon creating a mythal-esque thing around the tower of Ashaba... well, you can do that of course, after all it is your game, but to dwell on the safe side of things: don't. Semmy is powerful, yes, but not as powerful as even one elven High Mage. Again I say, if El and Storm and Syluné are busy elsewhere they are gone.
It's as simple as that. Don't go for elaborate rationalizations, the Chosen are usually busy... so they're just that, busy.
If, however, you want to go through with this, don't downplay El's being pissed off at the drow and the Zhents. If he is angry enough he will level a couple of places, or see to a kind of balance being meted out.
Still, don't do it. They just ain't there, shop's closed and won't open until the working vacation is over. |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 13:38:29
Unfortunately I haven't read the novel you referred to, but I like the idea of distracting Elminster away with powerful magic in some distant place. Then, when he's gone, a large anti scrying spell could be set up to prevent him from seeing what's going on back home until it's too late. I already have Semmemon preparing to cast a magical barrier around the Tower of Ashaba, like a smaller version of the barrier that protected Myth Drannor. The other thing I thought of was to have his tower literally undermined by the Drow. Then, when he's gone, they do a final blast and the tower drops deep underground, destroying or burying any portals, gems of teleportation, or scrying devices that El has set up in his home.
Afet |
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