| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| rjfras |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 01:06:33
I've found lots of information on pricing and building various types of buildings, but have not really found any infomation on the pricing of land in the Realms.
Does anyone know of any references that would have such info?
The cost of a "lot" (to put up a small shop or a row type house) of land in metropolises like Waterdeep or Calimport compared to the cost of land in a large city like Arabel, Darromar (Tethyr) or Sammaresh (Lapalliya) or even a small village like Daggerford.
Or the cost of say an acre just outside such cities, within the control of the city still and not outside their patrol area where it is mostly, squat on it and hold it. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 29 Jul 2008 : 00:45:55
I know what you mean. It's hard to get canon land prices, and I would really hesitate before making anything from the LC campaign canon in MY home FR campaign...
This is why I just gave up trying to figure out land prices and went with the DMG2 prices when that book got released. The DMG2 way is really easy and straightforward... and if you use it in conjunction with the DMG2 business ownership system, the Business Savvy feat, the Favored in Guild feat, the Guildmaster feat, and the additional rules in Powers of Faerun (notably the Merchant Prince class), then you've got something really solid and balanced if you compare it to the non-merchant PCs of your group (i.e. any PC can own businesses and make money, and own land, but it really pays off if you take the right non-combat feats and the Merchant Prince class, therefore creating a "you can't have it all" tradeoff that works really well in play...) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 06:37:00
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I remember that the campaign directors for the Living City (Raven's Bluff) campaign had appointed a "real estate clerk" to the campaign. An adventurer could only buy land with the approval of that campaign clerk, usually at conventions, and following some kind of auction.
Land auctions are a great way to roleplay the buying process with your PCs! have them bid, and see them squirm when the rich banite noble stuns them with ridiculous counterbids... 
Anyways, back to the point: that Living City Land Clerk had the prices for all available dwellings within Raven's Bluff, complete with computerized lot maps, sewer map, and the like... I wish I could remember her name and better, know how to contact her.
Maybe a scribe on these boards will read this and be able to help you out...
Wow, that land clerk sounds like an awesome source.
For the computerised maps as well. On that subject, you don't happen to know what the scale of the map in the City of Raven's Bluff supplement is supposed to be? As far as I can see, there's no indication of it in the book.
I do worry, however, that the prices in the Living City campaign could be somewhat different than canon-Realms prices. I don't want to make Raven's Bluff the most expensive city in Faerun (even though it's a very prosperous and expensive city). |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 02:40:55
I remember that the campaign directors for the Living City (Raven's Bluff) campaign had appointed a "real estate clerk" to the campaign. An adventurer could only buy land with the approval of that campaign clerk, usually at conventions, and following some kind of auction.
Land auctions are a great way to roleplay the buying process with your PCs! have them bid, and see them squirm when the rich banite noble stuns them with ridiculous counterbids...
Anyways, back to the point: that Living City Land Clerk had the prices for all available dwellings within Raven's Bluff, complete with computerized lot maps, sewer map, and the like... I wish I could remember her name and better, know how to contact her.
Maybe a scribe on these boards will read this and be able to help you out... |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Jul 2008 : 07:31:39
Thanks, Hooded One. That's great lore.
My players aren't likely to buy Waterhavian land just yet, being based around the Sea of Fallen Stars, but I was considering this as the baseline for my Raven't Bluff campaign.
How much would you say that Raven's Bluff prices differ from Waterhavian ones?
In my campaign, I ruled that pre-war housing wasn't much below Waterdeep, since the city is prosperous, full of rich adventurers and people were competing for lots. With the devastation of the war, the city emptied its coffers rebuilding.
That meant overwork for builders and stonemasons, pushing new buildings up to full Waterdeep levels or above. But it also meant near-bankruptcy for the city, necessiating some means to raise revenues. The means chosen by Lady Amber Lynn Thoden was a system of land taxation designed to hit the richest citizens hardest, but which ranged from 5 sp/square foot to several gold pieces per square feet and was payable annually. Poor families living in residential housing below certain standards had deferments available to them, but businesses and nobles had no such options.
Only Lady Thoden's soaring popularity after her exploits in the war could have enabled her to pass it and only the recent upheaval among the old guard of the city government could have prevented stiff opposition.
This tax, predictably to most modern people, at least, caused a crash in the land market. The tax burden on land was so much that prices fell and in 1373 DR they are now at half of Waterdeep's levels.
After O'Kane took over, he considered removing the tax, but ultimately decided not to. For one thing, the adventurers that make up so much of the population are often happy to ignore the long-term costs of owning property and will buy at the low prices and pay full tax. For another, the city is so deep in the financial hole that even a small reduction in revenues could prove fatal to it. Which would enable certain Sembian interests to go to the appropriate temples with their loan agreements, signed by former mayor Lady Amber Lynn Thoden, and demand that all City land be turned over to them.
And I've got a general Realms query for you as well. How much do you think a smallhold of decent land (maybe a 100 acres, some suitable for farming, a bit of shrub and forest and maybe a small creek) outside a city but within an hour's ride from it is going to set people back? Within a half-day's ride? A day's travel away?
I'm curious whether you've seen some prices in Ed's campaigns. I'll ask Steven Schend what his take is, as well. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 26 Jul 2008 : 16:00:17
Two factors to note, here: in Waterdeep, "anyone" can buy land in Dock Ward. There're no social implications. In Sea Ward and the more westerly parts of North Ward, non-nobles are going to have a VERY hard time buying in (as opposed to renting). That puts the competition (bidding) to Dock Ward and South Ward, and artificially depresses the market price of properties in Sea Ward, in particular (a given noble might sell if he needed the money, but would charge a lower price to a noble buyer, and a much higher price to a non-noble; Steven's prices assume a non-noble buyer is operating through a young noble acting as agent (said noble will take a stiff commission, of course).
And prices in Suzail are pushed up for the factors Steven gives, exascerbated by the firmer control the Crown has kept over building (less crowding, buildings "bridging" over streets, cellars expanded out under streets, and so on) as compared to Waterdeep's Dock Ward.
It follows that at the lower end of the wealth scale, many folks rent or long-term lease (think of the 99-year leases "leasehold" versus "freehold" real-world system found in, say, London, England).
And finally, the pricing system is a GUIDELINE, and can "fade" from covering the specifics of a given situation. For one thing, it's always easier to buy a Waterdhavian building in the depths of a hard winter, as opposed to the height of a crowded-city summer.
love to all,
THO |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Jul 2008 : 14:17:57
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
i think your math is off a bit... for example, your 1000' square foot building would be roughly just one of the prices listed as each one is listed as per 30'square lot.. a 30' by 30' lot is 900 square feet... just under your 1000' square feet...
Ah, in that case I'm fine with it.
I took 30 square lot to mean a lot that was 30 square feet in size. If it means a 900 square feet area of land, I have no problem with the prices as given.
Although, in that case, I note that land price per square feet is cheapest for Type C and not, as you might have expected, Type D land. |
| rjfras |
Posted - 26 Jul 2008 : 06:56:02
i think your math is off a bit... for example, your 1000' square foot building would be roughly just one of the prices listed as each one is listed as per 30'square lot.. a 30' by 30' lot is 900 square feet... just under your 1000' square feet... |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 12:37:30
I'm basically fine with the prices given for the more prestigious spots in the city, but I'm shocked at the implications for poorer houseowners.
Does this mean that a humble warehouse owner in Waterdeep's Dock Ward owns a property worth millions of gold pices? A warehouse with an upper floor for doing business, taking up a total of 10000 square feet would cost about 1,111,111 gp. Or am I doing something wrong?
Even if we assume a tiny little warehouse with no second floor, let's say a 1000 square feet warehouse, we're still up to 83,333 gp. Isn't that excessive?
And shouldn't property values vary more within Waterdeep? I'd think that a lot in a prime location in Sea Ward would be many times the price of a lot in an undesirable part of the Dock Ward, not 140% the price.
If you take London as an example, the cachet of living in certain neighbourhoods, combined with a fixed amount of available land there, results in prices triple or more that of other housing within a ten minute commute distance. Now, Waterdeep has fixed amount of land available in the upscale Wards and it certainly appears that there are considerable social advantages to living in Sea Ward as opposed to Dock Ward.
Why is warehouse space in the Dock Ward, for example on a lot that was burned down in the Sahuagin War, nearly as expensive as a noble's manor? The cost of the building itself is nearly an afterthought, since the land is the expensive part, so it would seem that a decently sized warehouse would have to yield awesome profits per year in order for the owner to recoup his investment.
And as for inns, whew! Let's just say that buying a place and settling down as an innkeeper in Waterdeep is an activity better left to Kings and Archwizards, as they're the only ones who can afford it. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 16:06:27
quote:
Originally posted by Karth
Interesting, Steven. I like your thought process. My only counterpoint would be that Waterdeep is a self-contained, autonomous city-state, while Suzail is the capital city of a larger nation-state, composed of multiple cities/towns/villages, etc.
It sounds like you'd take the position that the capital of a nation-state would get bumped up one step - Suzail above Waterdeep.
I was tending toward the reverse: the consolidated power advantages of a city-state (more safety in sheer numbers, centralized access to resources and trade, etc) would push it up a notch, compared to the capital of a more diffuse country like Cormyr, where resources are more spread-out among the various communities.
Any thoughts?
Cheers,
-Karth
While Waterdeep does do all that, the reason I put Suzail (and major capitals of major states) above Waterdeep for pricing is that #1 reason of the last post--prestige.
After all, the local nobles of Cormyr will want to flock to Suzail for the prestige of being connected to the Court or at least being seen in its vicinity. While there are nobles in Waterdeep and it is the most social place to be, it's not a location where tax monies come in.
Think of it relatively--Waterdeep is a bastion of civilization in the North, and its troops help protect many small villages et al. It does not collect taxes from outlying settlements, nor is it anything but its own territory/place.
Suzail, on the other hand, is the jewel of Cormyr, the political and economic center of Cormyr--a strong land covering and claiming 100s of miles (and all the taxes therein). With all that money and power linked to that city, it's arguable that the competition for building there (for the prestige or just to be close to the money) will drive prices up.
Those're my two coppers.
Steven |
| Karth |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 13:36:43
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Karth
quote:
All of these fees come together and are finally adjusted by their placement.
Dock Ward No change to price
South Ward +2% to total price
Trades Ward +5% to total price
Castle Ward +10% to total price if south of the Castle
Castle Ward +20% if north of the Castle
North Ward +25% to total price
Sea Ward +40% to total price
Steven,
It occurs to me that you could use this sort of 'ward scaling' to apply a suitable modifier to other cities, towns, etc.
So, using Waterdeep as a base, would you agree on scaled property price modifers for, say...
Suzail - One step down from Waterdeep Dock Ward? -5%?
Arabel - Two steps down? -10%?
Scornubel - Three steps down? -15%
Loudwater - Four? -20%
Daggerford - Five? -25%
Or are those assumptions way off?
Only slightly, Karth. Suzail, being a major capitol, might be equal to if not greater than, prices in Waterdeep (and scaling its wards equally). Remember that the price is more driven by the city's or town's local importance, national/geographic importance, and what it offers people (defense, safer water, easier trade?) in contrast to the rural surroundings. Thus, Loudwater's very important in its area for local trade and/or defense, but it's not a world-class trade port because of its location.
I can't give you a hard and fast ruling on how to price the buildings and such in every place. Just use your gut and use the Waterdeep tables with these adjustments in mind:
Does the settlement draw people due to
1) political or social prestige?
2) trade (due to location on important routes)?
3) offered safety as opposed to living rurally?
4) something unique or of interest (ala Candlekeep or the Vault of the Sages)?
5) its prominence as a seat of government? (This last one is adjusted both for local and/or national government--I.E. a ducal seat vs. the King's city.)
If it's all of those factors combined, the settlement is probably at least as expensive as Suzail. If you only cover 4 factors, equate it to Waterdeep's prices. Three factors probably reduce its prices by one step, two relevant factors drop the price by 2-3 steps, and if it's only one of these factors, I'd drop the price 3-4 steps.
If I've forgotten other reasons (historically medieval in nature at least) why folks would want to live in a town/city/capitol rather than on their own land etc., please remind me here and adjust the factors' list accordingly.
Steven
Interesting, Steven. I like your thought process. My only counterpoint would be that Waterdeep is a self-contained, autonomous city-state, while Suzail is the capital city of a larger nation-state, composed of multiple cities/towns/villages, etc.
It sounds like you'd take the position that the capital of a nation-state would get bumped up one step - Suzail above Waterdeep.
I was tending toward the reverse: the consolidated power advantages of a city-state (more safety in sheer numbers, centralized access to resources and trade, etc) would push it up a notch, compared to the capital of a more diffuse country like Cormyr, where resources are more spread-out among the various communities.
Any thoughts?
Cheers,
-Karth |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 20:14:26
Another thing that might affect land prices is how the government itself is run. If land owners (and only land owners) are allowed to vote in elections (even if its just local things like how to tax road use, or what the fines are for stealing potatoes), then land would be more valuable because of the added ability given because of it. To take this a little further, some places may allow you more votes based on amount of acreage owned. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 17:18:17
quote:
Originally posted by Karth
quote:
All of these fees come together and are finally adjusted by their placement.
Dock Ward No change to price
South Ward +2% to total price
Trades Ward +5% to total price
Castle Ward +10% to total price if south of the Castle
Castle Ward +20% if north of the Castle
North Ward +25% to total price
Sea Ward +40% to total price
Steven,
It occurs to me that you could use this sort of 'ward scaling' to apply a suitable modifier to other cities, towns, etc.
So, using Waterdeep as a base, would you agree on scaled property price modifers for, say...
Suzail - One step down from Waterdeep Dock Ward? -5%?
Arabel - Two steps down? -10%?
Scornubel - Three steps down? -15%
Loudwater - Four? -20%
Daggerford - Five? -25%
Or are those assumptions way off?
Only slightly, Karth. Suzail, being a major capitol, might be equal to if not greater than, prices in Waterdeep (and scaling its wards equally). Remember that the price is more driven by the city's or town's local importance, national/geographic importance, and what it offers people (defense, safer water, easier trade?) in contrast to the rural surroundings. Thus, Loudwater's very important in its area for local trade and/or defense, but it's not a world-class trade port because of its location.
I can't give you a hard and fast ruling on how to price the buildings and such in every place. Just use your gut and use the Waterdeep tables with these adjustments in mind:
Does the settlement draw people due to
1) political or social prestige?
2) trade (due to location on important routes)?
3) offered safety as opposed to living rurally?
4) something unique or of interest (ala Candlekeep or the Vault of the Sages)?
5) its prominence as a seat of government? (This last one is adjusted both for local and/or national government--I.E. a ducal seat vs. the King's city.)
If it's all of those factors combined, the settlement is probably at least as expensive as Suzail. If you only cover 4 factors, equate it to Waterdeep's prices. Three factors probably reduce its prices by one step, two relevant factors drop the price by 2-3 steps, and if it's only one of these factors, I'd drop the price 3-4 steps.
If I've forgotten other reasons (historically medieval in nature at least) why folks would want to live in a town/city/capitol rather than on their own land etc., please remind me here and adjust the factors' list accordingly.
Steven |
| Karth |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 15:03:46
quote:
All of these fees come together and are finally adjusted by their placement.
Dock Ward No change to price
South Ward +2% to total price
Trades Ward +5% to total price
Castle Ward +10% to total price if south of the Castle
Castle Ward +20% if north of the Castle
North Ward +25% to total price
Sea Ward +40% to total price
Steven,
It occurs to me that you could use this sort of 'ward scaling' to apply a suitable modifier to other cities, towns, etc.
So, using Waterdeep as a base, would you agree on scaled property price modifers for, say...
Suzail - One step down from Waterdeep Dock Ward? -5%?
Arabel - Two steps down? -10%?
Scornubel - Three steps down? -15%
Loudwater - Four? -20%
Daggerford - Five? -25%
Or are those assumptions way off?
Cheers,
-Karth |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 15:16:15
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You could always make use of Steven Schend's "Property Values in Waterdeep" to plot out something for the City of Splendors, and something similar for other cities as well:-
quote:
Here's a rough guess, and individual DMs can adjust as desired to fit the monetary standards of their own games. The prices immediately below are those for living space, not businesses. Yes, few of the city's current natives could afford to buy new buildings (or even old buildings) had they not been purchased ages ago and kept in the family, only having to worry about taxes. This is one of the main reasons why Waterdeep gets rebuilt exactly as before whenever tragedy strikes--no one is willing to give up the prime real estate except those who can afford to buy better...
Class D Buildings: 1,000 gp per 18' square lot/building site + 750 gp/floor of building built (new) or 500 gp/floor when purchasing a building.
Class C: 2,000 gp per 30' square lot/site + 1,500 gp/floor (new) or 1,000 gp/floor.
Class B: 4,000 gp per 30' square lot/site + 2,400 gp/floor (new) or 2,000 gp/floor.
Class A: 10,000 gp per 50' square lot/site + 7,500 gp/floor (new) or 5,000 gp/floor.
These ratings are also adjusted by any changes or additions made to the Representative Floor Plans in City of Splendors, any expensive materials used, etc. For these, add trade charges for the labor (see Guild prices on Building and Stone). If the building has a business or trade use, fees come from the respective guilds (about 5% of lot costs + guild membership fees) and the City (an additional 2% based off lot costs), payable at the Palace.
All of these fees come together and are finally adjusted by their placement.
Dock Ward No change to price
South Ward +2% to total price
Trades Ward +5% to total price
Castle Ward +10% to total price if south of the Castle
Castle Ward +20% if north of the Castle
North Ward +25% to total price
Sea Ward +40% to total price
If any side of the building is......
On a main avenue (pavement): +25% to total price after ward adjustment
On a secondary avenue (cobblestones): +10% to total price after ward adjustment
On a lesser avenue (corduroy/logs): +5% to total price after ward adjustment
On a minor avenue (dirt road): No change to price
Yes, this makes real estate in Waterdeep horrendously expensive, but that's life in the biggest city in the North and one of Toril's greatest cities ever.....
Steven Schend
FR Senior Designer
Thanks, Sage; I couldn't find my copy of that, so I'm very glad you found it.
I posted a follow-up to this in my Q&A board, but I'll copy it here for ease of reference:
Having reread [the prices note you posted], I'd still agree that those prices are applicable still, at least for Waterdeep.
That said, in the immediate post-Spellplague mess in Waterdeep, there's probably an additional bump of at least 10-15% in prices across the board for one reason--the magical bulwarking of so many buildings may have made the foundations of those buildings and many more unstable when the magical supports collapsed. Thus, a lot of building will be happening in Waterdeep because of the Spellplague, but fret not--the city and the majority of the buildings will survive. Just know that those minor buildings that obviously need magical support (like many ostentatious noble's homes perched atop magical constructions) may not survive....and when they need to be rebuilt, there's due to be extra charges because they may have to reshore or rebuild the entire foundation...and build it mundanely this time....
Hope that helps.
Steven
who must insist that this is about the most he can talk about the Spellplague's effects on Waterdeep right now, so no flooding him with questions about it, please.... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 01:41:07
You could always make use of Steven Schend's "Property Values in Waterdeep" to plot out something for the City of Splendors, and something similar for other cities as well:-
quote:
Here's a rough guess, and individual DMs can adjust as desired to fit the monetary standards of their own games. The prices immediately below are those for living space, not businesses. Yes, few of the city's current natives could afford to buy new buildings (or even old buildings) had they not been purchased ages ago and kept in the family, only having to worry about taxes. This is one of the main reasons why Waterdeep gets rebuilt exactly as before whenever tragedy strikes--no one is willing to give up the prime real estate except those who can afford to buy better...
Class D Buildings: 1,000 gp per 18' square lot/building site + 750 gp/floor of building built (new) or 500 gp/floor when purchasing a building.
Class C: 2,000 gp per 30' square lot/site + 1,500 gp/floor (new) or 1,000 gp/floor.
Class B: 4,000 gp per 30' square lot/site + 2,400 gp/floor (new) or 2,000 gp/floor.
Class A: 10,000 gp per 50' square lot/site + 7,500 gp/floor (new) or 5,000 gp/floor.
These ratings are also adjusted by any changes or additions made to the Representative Floor Plans in City of Splendors, any expensive materials used, etc. For these, add trade charges for the labor (see Guild prices on Building and Stone). If the building has a business or trade use, fees come from the respective guilds (about 5% of lot costs + guild membership fees) and the City (an additional 2% based off lot costs), payable at the Palace.
All of these fees come together and are finally adjusted by their placement.
Dock Ward No change to price
South Ward +2% to total price
Trades Ward +5% to total price
Castle Ward +10% to total price if south of the Castle
Castle Ward +20% if north of the Castle
North Ward +25% to total price
Sea Ward +40% to total price
If any side of the building is......
On a main avenue (pavement): +25% to total price after ward adjustment
On a secondary avenue (cobblestones): +10% to total price after ward adjustment
On a lesser avenue (corduroy/logs): +5% to total price after ward adjustment
On a minor avenue (dirt road): No change to price
Yes, this makes real estate in Waterdeep horrendously expensive, but that's life in the biggest city in the North and one of Toril's greatest cities ever.....
Steven Schend
FR Senior Designer
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