| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aureus |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 09:52:48
I have been pondering over this for some time, my idea is than anyone who can who has a spellbook containing 0level spells should be able to prepare and cast one cantrip per day, the prerequesite would be 1 rank in knowledge(arcane), an Intelligence score of at least 10 and (which seems most logical) to be able to read the language the spell is written in (not necessarily understanding, that's another matter )
to me that's a way for a character to show interest in a domain he has not the time to learn and master (especially martial types who like magic but do not have the time and means to learn it fully)
Any thoughts or comments? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Iliyan |
Posted - 28 Feb 2008 : 09:30:08
Well, Stonwulfe's example of cantrip power is my immage of magic in the world of DnD...
If you use it in inventive ways, you are rewarded, and if you dont, then you better have your back covered!
If I would increase the effectiveness of Magic in a campaign, giving unlimited cantrips/orisons to trained casters could very well end up with a Terry Pratchet world >< Magic pollution would be HUUGe, since any caster of lvl 1 would be unbalanced, however, if you add it to players only... now thats a different idea, would add much more magic into the player's lives, and not to mention fun!
Ray of frost on the glass of water next to someone, and then blame them for breaking the cup, and paying for it! :D
Could make loooads of bar fights that way! :D |
| Aureus |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 18:08:37
wow, it seems I set loose an avalanche
PS: I was alos thinking about orisons but hadn't thought any prerequisitions so far |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 23:15:48
Geez! talk about a Road Runner moment!  |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 21:24:37
One of my favorite nasties with Cantrips is to set up a large number of very obvious, very securely rooted deadfall traps in a gorge. The boulders, logs, and dead ogre bodies should weigh enough that the anchor chain will strain (but not break) a water-soaked wooden peg. The peg, of course, acts as the lynchpin.
The peg, when hit with a mallet, won't move. The trap, with a little acting, will appear to not have worked, and the enemy will laugh and rush in. However, you follow this up by using ray of frost on the wood-soaked peg and CRACK, you got yourself one busted chain and a whole army of dead baddies. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 21:12:01
Absolutely! Dancing Lights is a cantrip but it's far from useless!!! light up your enemies from a carefully chosen hidden position, and move the "spotlight" while your friends pepper them with arrows! he he he! my favorite gnomish trick! 
(throw in a few ghost sounds... and it's utter chaos!!) |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 19:20:41
I agree completely, Wooly. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 19:05:49
I think even cantrips can have lasting effects, depending on what those effects are... That's always been a bit of a problem with the rules and cantrips: the specification that the cantrips are always short-lived. So that means that if you use a cantrip to light a candle, the candle will go out a few minutes later, or if you use a cantrip to tie a show, then the shoe comes untied a few minutes later, or that if you use a cantrip to shave, the facial hair comes back within minutes. Minor effects like that shouldn't have a limited duration. I'm not saying that the candle can't be blown out, the shoe can't be untied, or that the facial hair won't grow back throughout the day, I'm just saying that the "no lasting effects" line shouldn't make cantrips useless. That doesn't keep with the flavor of cantrips. |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 18:53:23
I am going to throw a few hats in the ring here and see who picks them up. First off, I tend to do things a little differently in my present campaign. I have made a few chages to encourage my players to roleplay.
First of these is that anyone capable of casting first level spells and has a relevant ability mod of +2 or higher may cast an unlimited number of 0-level spells per day. The rationale is that any wizard/sorcerer worth his salt should be able to move a pencil, freeze a glass of water, or create the illusion of light with almost effortless expense.
Second, as it comes to the feat Magical Training, there are a number of societal situ where I allow my players the opportunity to gain the benefit of access to cantrips if they have no desire to pursue an XP exenditure in a class. For example, the wild and forest elves and the peoples of the lake of steam have strong shamanic traditions that mix arcane, divine, and pseudo-magical arts. It is conceivable that such cultures can produce a 'hedge magic' used by proficient scouts, warriors, and trained soldiery. However, those with said feat are exempt of the aforementioned benefit.
Third - I enjoy treating prestidigitation (in the same wording as an old Dragon article) as 'the little wish', and encourage my more forward players to be inventive with it. The cantrip should be able to accomplish nearly any feat, so long as it doesn't produce any lasting or grandiose effects. That said, an inventive rogue with magical training in my campaign once used a summoned banana peel to send a guard in pursuit cantering off his battlement and into the moat, and later used the same to conceal the scent of a stolen ring from the guard dogs.
I welcome all replies. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 16:10:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And this is the kind of stuff that has shaped my view of cantrips. It's why I favor the approach I suggested.
IMO, as much as I like 3.x, there are already too many skills in it. That is why I suggested using the Skill Trick mechanic to accomplish pretty much the same thing. |
| Iliyan |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 10:20:28
Ok, i must say that Orisons maybe don't quite fall into the same category as cantrips on this matter... thus shouldn't be so easy accesable..
However, please note that learning and casting cantrips in the manner i sudgested wouldnt break anything... simply because the fact stands, its still arcane magic...
Before you mentioned the guard using detect magic... well i recon the guard is using some kind of armour, not very likely its a Twilight Mithral Breastplate +1 of Nimbleness...
so he WILL have a serious ASF chance from 20%+
lets not forget that cantrips are rather limited in their duration... and that a untrained caster has a CL of 1...( if even that)
so you sudgest 3 rounds of concentration?... the detect magic will last 1 min max for that guard.. he will have a ASF for it when he wants to cast it, and lets not forget, if someone is invisible, the guard must first notice him, to even start using detect magic, and then concentrate for 3 rounds to detect him completely( and the target moves.. oh no, 3 more rounds of concentration)
Lets just conclude that Cantrips are FUN, and thats pretty much it... you could use Ray of Frost, to make a Frozen Rose for your love...
you could tidy the house with Prestidigitation( 1hr duration)...
you can use Read Magic, to help you studdy magic further, thus maybe someday aquiring a rank of actual Wizard... the proces takes ALOTA time
you can use Mending as a Expert Clocksmith to help you fix briken parts...
you can use Ghost Sounds to help you win over a crowd with ventriloquism...
you can help yourself with dancing lights...
detect poisons helps in the local hospital...
Thus, Magic is a VITAL part of the world... who wouldn't want to use it, should it be made available like this... and in combat.. it would be pretty much useless( oh no, 1d4 frost damage >.<) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 22:21:19
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
To my reading, discussion of cantrips in Realmslore is too coherent to dismiss as a rules artefact. For instance, Cyclopedia of the Realms p. 57:quote:
After years of what seem to the student to be arduous and unpleasant tasks, the tutoring mage will begin instructions in the easiest cantrips, then later moving on to the first spell books.
DM's Sourcebook of the Realms p. 78:quote:
Sabirine . . . was a mage with an especial interest in cantrips, and was an enthusiastic advocate of the continued use and refinement of cantrips by magic-users of long career and high level. The Specular, for instance, contains three unique cantrips developed by Sabirine: catfeet, snatch, and spark.
FR7 Hall of Heroes p. 113:quote:
Even before she could read or write well, Jhessail had discovered how to use a few simple cantrips, just from carefully observing mages and their apprentices. She delighted her young friends with such petty magics as blue light.
That kind of precocious ability, and magical wild talents, are rare. Blurring the line further between mages and non-mages would be too much.
And this is the kind of stuff that has shaped my view of cantrips. It's why I favor the approach I suggested. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 21:26:35
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Does this hold true? My understanding of the spell was a different one. Besides, your interpretation would make the spell 'See invisibility' almost redundent! We had a similar discussion in this thread: Detect magic and Illusion/invisibility
See Invisibility is much more powerful: it lets you see invisibles immediately upon casting (no need to wait 3 rounds to pinpoint the aura). It also lets you see "up to your range of vision", which is pretty far in the case of a dragon, say, flying 5,000 feet above ground on a clear day... (see below)
As per SRD:
"You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible. Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures."
Detect Magic lets you see where the illusion school aura is after 3 rounds: that's it! You still have a 50% miss chance if you shoot at that mysterious illusion aura coming towards you... See Invisibility, on the other hand, does away with such constraints. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 17:54:20
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Stick to the rules. It's much better that way!
Otherwise you'll have to keep devising extra rules for drow, aasimar, gnomes and everyone else with spell-like abilities... not to mention that Races of Faerun and Drow of the Underdark [3.5] have additional *feats* that let you improve upon these aforementioned spell-like abilities.
That might be true. After all, there are enough feats, skills, PrC, SubC, ect out there already to make keeping track no easy task for any DM!
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Please remember that detect magic lets you pinpoint invisible foes after 3 rounds of concentration, a major advantage for say, a 4th-level fighter town guard manning the gates!
Does this hold true? My understanding of the spell was a different one. Besides, your interpretation would make the spell 'See invisibility' almost redundent! We had a similar discussion in this thread: Detect magic and Illusion/invisibility |
| Faraer |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 17:32:12
To my reading, discussion of cantrips in Realmslore is too coherent to dismiss as a rules artefact. For instance, Cyclopedia of the Realms p. 57:quote:
After years of what seem to the student to be arduous and unpleasant tasks, the tutoring mage will begin instructions in the easiest cantrips, then later moving on to the first spell books.
DM's Sourcebook of the Realms p. 78:quote:
Sabirine . . . was a mage with an especial interest in cantrips, and was an enthusiastic advocate of the continued use and refinement of cantrips by magic-users of long career and high level. The Specular, for instance, contains three unique cantrips developed by Sabirine: catfeet, snatch, and spark.
FR7 Hall of Heroes p. 113:quote:
Even before she could read or write well, Jhessail had discovered how to use a few simple cantrips, just from carefully observing mages and their apprentices. She delighted her young friends with such petty magics as blue light.
That kind of precocious ability, and magical wild talents, are rare. Blurring the line further between mages and non-mages would be too much. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 17:14:16
Stick to the rules. It's much better that way!
Otherwise you'll have to keep devising extra rules for drow, aasimar, gnomes and everyone else with spell-like abilities... not to mention that Races of Faerun and Drow of the Underdark [3.5] have additional *feats* that let you improve upon these aforementioned spell-like abilities.
The FR regional cantrip feat (Magical Training was it?) is a VERY powerful feat. Please remember that detect magic lets you pinpoint invisible foes after 3 rounds of concentration, a major advantage for say, a 4th-level fighter town guard manning the gates! |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 08:15:44
Point taken! I still don't likde the idea, personally..... |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:26:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Iliyan
Why even limit the idea to cantrips?
Orisons and Cantrips are both very exciting and amusing ways to bring more magic into your games... think of it like this:
*snip*
I have to disagree with you. Orisons are not like cantrisat all. While arcane magic is a talent that can be 'learned' the the divine art, and that includes even the most minor spells such as orisons, are a gift granted by the gods themselves.
Therefore I would not extend this idea to divine magic.
That is why I suggested a Common Book of Prayers for your patron deity, and 5 ranks into Knowledge (Religion). Who is to say (other than the DM) whether or not the character's patron deity is willing to grant them 3 Orisons per day if they go through the trouble of learning about the deity, and learning specific prayers for specific Orisons? |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 09:26:46
quote:
Originally posted by Iliyan
Why even limit the idea to cantrips?
Orisons and Cantrips are both very exciting and amusing ways to bring more magic into your games... think of it like this:
*snip*
I have to disagree with you. Orisons are not like cantrisat all. While arcane magic is a talent that can be 'learned' the the divine art, and that includes even the most minor spells such as orisons, are a gift granted by the gods themselves.
Therefore I would not extend this idea to divine magic.
|
| Hawkins |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 16:23:22
I would make it similar to skill tricks as introduced in the Complete Scoundrel.
For Orisons I would say that you have to have a Wis of 10 (min to cast a level 0 spell) and 5 Ranks into Knowledge (Religion) (min to show competence in any knowledge, and min for any skill trick), and then have to spend 2 skill points to learn the skill trick Cast Orison, by which means you can cast 3 Orisons per day by praying to your deity.
For Cantrips I would say that you have to have a Int of 10 (min to cast a level 0 spell) and 5 Ranks into Knowledge (Arcana) (min to show competence in any knowledge, and min for any skill trick), and then have to spend 2 skill points to learn the skill trick Cast Cantrip, by which means you can cast 3 Cantrips per day by casting them out of a spell book.
This could also be a new way to incorporate a Book of Common Prayers to [insert deity here] and a Book of Common Cantrips into your game. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 14:43:11
Considering that cantrips have oft been described as minor magical exercises and something an apprentice learns before moving up to real spells, I dislike the idea of memorizing or otherwise preparing a cantrip. My thinking is a spellcraft check to visualize the effect you want, and then doing with a verbal and somantic component. For example, an apprentice wishing to dust a shelf would visualize blowing all the dust off the shelf, make some sort of sound approximating a focused burst of air ("Pfft!"), and a brushing gesture with one hand. He does all this, and the shelf is suddenly dusted.
That's why I always favored that proficiency approach in that 2E article: it kept things simple and preserved the flavor of cantrips. I think it would be simple enough to do in 3.x as a skill; make spellcraft a prerequisite, make the mods and checks for this Cantrips skill the same, and impose limits on it similar to those in that long ago article. |
| Iliyan |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 11:49:15
Why even limit the idea to cantrips?
Orisons and Cantrips are both very exciting and amusing ways to bring more magic into your games... think of it like this:
Everyone can learn 1 0-level spell per day if he/she follows the following rules:
Requirements:
Cantrips:
Minimally 10 Intelligence
1 Rank in: Knowledge( Arcane), Spellcraft
OR
Orisons:
Minimally 10 Wisdom
Worship of a Deity( you must match the Deity's Alignment)
*For instance, if the Deity is LG, your alignment must be within 1 space of the Deity's therefore you must be either LG, NG, or LN.*
1 Rank in: Knowledge( Religion), Spellcraft
Cantrips:
To prepare and learn a single Cantrip, a untrained person( aka not a Arcane Spellcaster) must provide himself with a small Spellbook( miniature versions would be available for purchase) which contains the spell to be cast( a common method is paying a Wizard, or a Adept to scribe the spell in the book, which would cost 50gp).
Furthermore preparing the spell follows the same rules as Wizards. The spell is Prepared, becomes expended if used.
Preparing the spell takes 10 minutes, during which you study and memorize the Verbal and Somatic gestures required to cast it.
Recent Castings limit applies( you may not memorize the spell if you cast it in under 12 hours, meaning you can memorize it once every 12 hours)
Unlike Wizards, you do not need 8 full hours of rest or limited activity to start preparing the spell, since the spell is so minor.
Orisons:
To prepare and cast a single Orison, a untrained person( aka not a Divine Spellcaster) must pray for 10 minutes at a specified time, relevant to the Deity, asking for the Favor of the Deity.
However, asking for a Deity's Favor is a risky task, not all Deity's grant spells to such minor worshipers, and some may even be offended by such a request.( DM discretion)
After successfully praying and gaining the favor of the Deity, you gain the ability to cast a single Orison 1/day.
The gained Orison must be available to the Deity to cast[ for instance, Good Deity's cant cast spells with the [Evil] descriptor, much like Lawful Deity's cant cast spells with the [Chaos] descriptor.]
You may once again prepare another Orison after having Prayed for 10 minutes during the relevant time( Dawn for good Deity's... etc, DM call), furthermore, you cant prepare the spell if you cast it under 8 Hours ago.
*All this effectively means that you can cast only 1 Orison per day. However Orisons tend to be a bit more powerful then Cantrips, and thus I find this a fair deal.*
There, I hope I provided you with a means to further familiarize your players with the ways of magic, for it is a way most dear to me and I myself reward my players to explore, and experiment with magic! |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 21:30:01
And while we are inventing a new thing here, you could limit the caster level to half of the character level for such none arcane caster classes, if you fear the cantrips on lvl 20.
Just a thought... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 20:34:12
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Stick to the feat, as is. Note that you use character level as caster level for these cantrips, so it's already a major advantage (a Ftr 20 with that feat would have a caster level of 20, better than an Wiz19 without the feat...)
But even with it being feat-based, is it really reasonable that a fighter could out-cantrip a wizard? |
| sirreus |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 19:34:45
cudos, pdk. that's a great point i'd missed |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 16:31:39
Stick to the feat, as is. Note that you use character level as caster level for these cantrips, so it's already a major advantage (a Ftr 20 with that feat would have a caster level of 20, better than an Wiz19 without the feat...) |
| Aureus |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 12:47:28
the spellcraft check could be used when the char is under stress (like combat, time running short etc) but when the char is relaxed (like sitting in a tavern and levitating with prestidigitation his ale back and forth between the table and the bar) he should be able to use it without difficulty
adding 1 skill point in concentration is a good idea  |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 08:28:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
In my eyes a feat would be costly too for something that's 99% for flavor and roleplay with no actual combat utility, cantrips are just to weak compared to what the martial classes can dish out by their great choice of weapons and the arcane failure rule still applies, even though it's just a cantrip
So make it a skill.
Like what? Some Skill check DC 20 to be able to cast a cantrip? If that is not costly as well... imagine a fighter with his 2 skill points. Than again, where else are those spent better than for roleplaying reasons. The more I think about it, the better I think of this idea, actually. How about this:
pre-req: INT score of at least 10, at least 1 skill point in knowledge arcane, at least 1 skill point in Concentration.
To cast a cantrip: DC 20 Spellcraft check
(You could edvance faster with the skill by taking feats such as 'cosmopolitan' or maybe 'education' as well.) |
| Vangelor |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 23:33:57
Some cantrips are quite handy, and there is more to adventure than combat. I don't think a feat slot is too high a price to pay for arcane magic ability - even if it is only for cantrips. But your roof, your rules. Houserule this however you like. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 22:55:11
quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
In my eyes a feat would be costly too for something that's 99% for flavor and roleplay with no actual combat utility, cantrips are just to weak compared to what the martial classes can dish out by their great choice of weapons and the arcane failure rule still applies, even though it's just a cantrip
So make it a skill. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 21:46:05
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
As an alternative I would simply give the character a wild talent to be able to cast a cantrip once a day
Yes, this is already part of the Realms as magical wild talents, not something a character consciously chooses but perhaps by a player. The nature of Art would be different if anyone could do it by picking up a spellbook. |
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