| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 19:07:01
I've got a player in my group who is the BIGGEST whiner, and I can't stand it. The biggest problem is that he is the only other person who will DM with me, so having him around is the only way I actually get to play a character.
This guy whines CONSTANTLY.
If faced with an opponant or battle that appears too tough for him, he will whine saying it's too strong of a battle and that there is no way his character would fight this battle. Such as recently, the party is 4 10th level characters and they had to battle a 19th level wizard, a 16th level sorcerer, a 15th level wizard, a beholder, and a runic guardian. Of course this battle does appear to be too powerful, the gaming group completely forgot (I have no idea how) that the previous adventure the PC's learned that the 15th level wizard was actually a spy out to stop this 19th level wizards plot. So the entire time before the battle, all I hear is whining. "Oh this is too powerful, we are out of our leagues. My character wouldn't fight this, he'd just walk away." and all of this junk. But of course the other PC's are going forward and fighting the battle so he reluctantly goes along.
When the battle begins the 15th level wizard "enemy" immediately turns on his allies and aids the PC's in the battle. The battle actually secludes the main enemy from the battle (as was planned by me from the start) as he had to work on a ritual. Thus it ended up being the 4 PC's and this 15th level wizard traitor against a 16th level sorcerer, a beholder, and a runic guardian. In the end the battle went quick. The sorcerer failed his save against prismatic spray and turned to stone on the first exchange, and the PC's destroyed the beholder and the runic guardian within two rounds. This lead to the final battle which included all PC's + the 15th level wizard against the 19th level wizard. Again, that player starts whining saying that once this wizard casts time stop they are all done for. I wanted to rip my hair out.
And it's not just this. It gets worse. If a battle happens, such as when the characters were 9th level, they were ambushed by a gang of bandit rogues, about 20 of them. These rogues were all 3rd level. The real plot behind this battle was that it was arranged by a powerful assassin to study how the PC's respond to stealthy assailants. Well this problem player walked through the battle with ease, and then was complaining that it was too easy and that I shouldn't have thrown this battle into the game. *grrrrr*
It get's worse. While exploring an ancient Netherese Ruins the place was guarded by multiple Iron Golems. His character, a spellcaster, clearly was useless offensively as the Iron Golems are immune to most forms of magic. Thus, he was delegated to the role of the "buffer", having to cast spells that suped up the fighters. Throughout the entire dungeon there were spots still guarded by Iron Golems. This player once again began complaining about how he can't "ever" do anything in battle, that I keep arranging battles where he is useless and how it's not fun for him. Forget that this was a sealed dungeon that no one had entered in over 2000 years and that nothing outside of undead or constructs would exist in there, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I didn't arrange for the place to be filled with more than constructs... at least until the end of the dungeon where they did end up fighting undead... only then the undead had spell resistance that was hard to overcome, so he complained about that too. "There's NOTHING I can do. I need to roll of 16+ to beat his spell resistance. That's stupid. I guess I'll just back up and stand there."
This was mostly just a rant. He's taking over DMing now, so I won't have to put up with it for awhile. I get to play and I am really resisting the urge to give him loads of trouble and a taste of his own medicine.
Does anyone else have to deal with someone like this? My brother games with us, and he was making fun of this player. He said, "Jesus bro, I bet before you came over to game this adventure today you were thinking; 'MAN! I really hope there isn't a challenge today...' " |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 18:53:47
I didn't mean to start a threadjacking... But we need to find our way back to the topic.  |
| Caedwyr |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 18:51:46
Yes :D. I'll admit that American Football has improved in the quality of play and the speed of the game a fair bit over the last few years. Still as far as sports go I've always been more of the enjoy playing over watching and I'm still confounded as to why so many people seem to enjoy watching baseball. For the most part, its a fairly boring sport to watch (fairly fun to play).
Are we far enough off topic yet?
As to the whiny player, I'll chime in with agreement that you should start taking some of what they say at the gaming table as what their character is saying and progress accordingly. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 18:28:06
quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
In the UK they play American football without pads and fewer rules and stoppages in plays.
Isn't that rugby?
I'm not really into watching sports, myself (and let's be honest, it is more of a guy thing), but I agree that there's no reason to dis American football. It's a game, and no less legitimate than other sports like soccer.
Oh, and Go Giants! |
| Caedwyr |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 17:39:49
In the UK they play American football without pads and fewer rules and stoppages in plays. |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 16:03:22
Mace, the guy weirded me out because he was very creepy and didn't seem at all like a normal person. When I walked into the store he kind of followed me around talking about all sorts of things out of nowhere. I took it as being friendly at first but he kept getting more and more excited as seconds went by. He ended up talking in some really creepy voice and started narrating this new game to me like he was one of those movie commericals... "I M A G I N E a WORLD where Frodo never made it to mount Doom!" I don't know, he just didn't seem like a well grounded person. It just creeped me out.
As far as American Football: Don't dis! I know Europeans don't get it, but I cannot fathom why. It is such a great sport full of tactics, strategy, and power. It's like a physical chess match or battle. You have to gain ground on your opponant to reach their end of the field. I love watching American Football. It's exciting.
And no, I never really played myself. I was a wrestler. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 14:51:07
Well, I was Northrhine Westfalian champion in kids rowing back when I was 14 and won a silver medal in the German kids championship that same year, so you might call me an ex-jock as well  |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 14:14:04
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
OK, I must admit, not being a native speaker and all that, I have no idea what a jock is...
Jock generally means someone who is athletic and interested in more physical pursuits, particularly sports. It's sometimes used in a derogatory manner, to refer to big muscular guys who aren't all that Smart. This definition is often used by people with a personal reason for disliking jocks, such as the nerds or geeks who spend their school days looking over their shoulders to make sure a jock isn't about to involve them in random violence.
I fell into that latter category, myself, but eventually learned that some (certainly not all!) of the jocks are actually great guys. 
Can I, as someone who pretty much lived on a football-pitch until I was in my mid-teens, thank you for changing your mind?
I surely hope you were playing the proper european version of the game and not this word-in-mouth-twisting american one where the ball is eggshaped and just be kicked high and far. If that is so, it accounts for me as well and I may call myself a 'jock' even today! Huzzay to soccer, I say.
Enough of SPORTS! *grumble grumble* let's get back to the dusty tomes and many sided dice we ALL love. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 13:29:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
OK, I must admit, not being a native speaker and all that, I have no idea what a jock is...
Jock generally means someone who is athletic and interested in more physical pursuits, particularly sports. It's sometimes used in a derogatory manner, to refer to big muscular guys who aren't all that smart. This definition is often used by people with a personal reason for disliking jocks, such as the nerds or geeks who spend their school days looking over their shoulders to make sure a jock isn't about to involve them in random violence.
I fell into that latter category, myself, but eventually learned that some (certainly not all!) of the jocks are actually great guys.
Can I, as someone who pretty much lived on a football-pitch until I was in my mid-teens, thank you for changing your mind? |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 08:17:36
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
OK, I must admit, not being a native speaker and all that, I have no idea what a jock is...
And what, pray tell, is "too serious"? I have one basic rule in any group I GM, the only things more important than the game is family and the job, nothing else counts (and I do count the best friend's birthday party amongst family stuff). Those who do not agree may leave. To roleplay in a campaign is a time investment, and I don't want half-assed folks using up air during the game. If you're hung-over and feel sick, stay at home, but if you'd rather go dancing than gaming, do so, and leave the game...
*shrug* maybe I'm too serious about it as well...
I have to tell you, Mace, everyone sets his own standards! And rightly so. For some Gaming is the first and major (maybe only) hobby and releave from built up stress. Others may see it rather as 'another' hobby amongst many others. Therefore the notion 'too serious' might differ from person to person.
But some of what you said holds true for me as well. E.g. that gaming a big time investment. Actually it is the most time consuming hobby I know to be out there. You can spend days and days preparing an adventure (as DM at least) and the worst thing that can happen is players ruining all the 'fun' by either canceling their articitation in a game session (which sucks but canhappen and is managable) or even worse they take part but don't play with all their heart because there is some other place they rather would like to be. Frustrating! Nerv-wreaking! Outragious! Annoying! Therefore, I am of similar mind as you:
'If you're hung-over and feel sick, stay at home, but if you'd rather go dancing than gaming, do so, and leave the game...'
However, I always grant those people that rather go dancing the chance to come back and join the fun of gaming on any other session if they would like to. After all, they are my friends too, even though they might not hold gaming as dear as I do. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 00:45:16
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
OK, I must admit, not being a native speaker and all that, I have no idea what a jock is...
Jock generally means someone who is athletic and interested in more physical pursuits, particularly sports. It's sometimes used in a derogatory manner, to refer to big muscular guys who aren't all that smart. This definition is often used by people with a personal reason for disliking jocks, such as the nerds or geeks who spend their school days looking over their shoulders to make sure a jock isn't about to involve them in random violence.
I fell into that latter category, myself, but eventually learned that some (certainly not all!) of the jocks are actually great guys. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 00:16:06
OK, I must admit, not being a native speaker and all that, I have no idea what a jock is...
And what, pray tell, is "too serious"? I have one basic rule in any group I GM, the only things more important than the game is family and the job, nothing else counts (and I do count the best friend's birthday party amongst family stuff). Those who do not agree may leave. To roleplay in a campaign is a time investment, and I don't want half-assed folks using up air during the game. If you're hung-over and feel sick, stay at home, but if you'd rather go dancing than gaming, do so, and leave the game...
*shrug* maybe I'm too serious about it as well... |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 00:07:46
I don't hang around gaming stores to be honest. I'm more of a jock type of guy and not many people I know would give D&D a chance. In fact, I'd probably endure a lot of jokes if the majority of my friends knew I was a die hard gamer. I don't hide it, but I don't advertise. The point being... I don't have many friends that would be willing to play. I do want a new group though since my own isn't likely to change. My brother is fine to play with when he feels like it, and one of my other friends is okay (the one who feels embarrassed to RP) but it's the whiner and his friend that I wouldn't mind replacing. The only problem is that he is the only other DM.
I tried the local comic/gaming store by my house, but got a bad impression from the guy working there when I asked him about gaming groups. Let's just say he was a little "too serious" about gaming. I swear the guy thought he was living in a gaming world and totally wierded me out.
Argh, now I sound like I am picky. LOL! I'm not actually, it just sounds like it.
I called up the old gamer and he sounds interested so I am hoping that will work out. Also, I have my childhood best friend who would probably be a good player, but I haven't spoken to him in YEARS, and he is extremely nervous around new people and feels uncomfortable. He always was like that. I doubt he'd want to. Still... I guess it wouldn't hurt to call him up. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 00:01:52
have you asked them what type of game they like to play?
Maybe they are whiney because they are not enjoying this specific game and/or characters?
I wouldn't worry too much about the roleplaying, it will come, the important thing is to keep doing it as the DM, don't stop and when someone does roleplay back to you, reward the character with something minor. So if its a tavern keeper and they roleplay booking the rooms, he says, "nice to have some nice folk round here for a change, I'll tell you what I'll stable your horses for free" that way the players see a reward for making the effort. You can do similar things if they talk to merchants or city guards etc.
To start with you need to build up the roleplaying atmosphere, so all the NPC's say "well met" in traditional Realms manner, every time!! (not hello or hiya or good morning) just keep encouraging them to roleplay and it will happen eventually.
best of luck
Damian
|
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 23:35:32
Dude, in all honesty, either find a new group, a real group, to play with (because you seriously sound like you are about to quit anyways) or play something like Heroquest, Talisman or whatnot.
Kinda strange, to me, all of this, because I've been gaming for more than 20 years now, and most of the people I play with have been at it for more than a decade. Hell, my sister started playing with me, not as intensely but still. I can almost handpick the people I wanna play with...true there is a shuffle on the roundabout every now and then, but that really does help the group in itself.
Of the original group that started playing FR with me 7 years ago, only 2 people remain, the 3rd was the one who always discussed my calls and in the end he wanted us to conform to his days when he could game, everyone else be damned. Over the time we had players come and go, some tried it, felt it was too time consuming and left, others would have liked to continue on, but moved across the country... the current "line-up" has been almost consistent for 2 or 3 years now, with the major exception of the complainer... and we've already got two replacements...
Maybe I'm just lucky, but if you have played for as long as I have and hung around gaming stores and the Spiel in Essen and Feen-Con in Bonn (which I haven't done in about a decade), plus knowing tons of gamers in the area, you can always find good and willing players.
/dramatic monologue over |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 22:13:15
No he doesn't really roleplay. That is the biggest problem I have with my gaming group. The group consists of me, my brother, and 3 friends. I am the only one who would actually roleplay a real character per his personality. My brother isn't the whining type, but he doesn't want to roleplay because he said he feels too dorky doing it. He'd rather play the game, but play it as if it were just a game the friends were playing.
One of my other friends, he is sort of the same. He's not used to actually getting into the character and playing him. He may be willing, but he constantly laughs and gets embarrassed if I try to get him to speak for his character.
The two others, including the one always complaining, they are more likely than the previous two to talk for the character and such, but they don't have any personality and thus even though they take charge more and talk, they roleplay worse. And they complain constantly.
In the last adventure, the whinier player, his characters sister was held as a hostage so they wouldn't charge in on the final enemy of the campaign. I had his sister abducted so I could gain time for the enemies to do their final "speech" before the battle began. This player (his character is CG) complained, "Well these enemies are too powerful for us so I don't know what I can do other than continue on with the surprise attack!" suggesting he'd just ignore it all and let his sister die. No way that actually would happen if he played his character.
To top it off, the enemy mage cast Horrid Wilting on the party including the hostage once the battle took place. His sister, a 0-level NPC died instantly. Did he have any reaction? No. he continued the fight, and once won he didn't tell me how he ran up to his sister, nothing. he chased the fleeing villain down the stairs for the last stand and then after the enemy escaped the PC's had to flee the dungeon as it was collapsing. They had to run BACK upstairs past the corpse of his sister, and exit via a portal. Not once did he mention his sister or try to pick up her remains from the ground. It was as if she was never there.
ARGH! So annoying.
I called up an old gamer from over 10 years ago today and suggested he join the group. He was a good DM from what I recall and a better roleplayer. Hopefully he will help. The only problem there is that he too always had an ego with his characters and would get angry if he lost a battle or was defeated in any way. Hopefully he has grown up since then. |
| LordArcana |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 21:05:26
Kill his character "honestly" with a mere goblin and then ask him if that was to powerful. Sometimes players need to be humble. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 18:46:57
It's been my experience that throwing someone's words back into their face can be very effective -- often more effective than more civilized responses.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 18:20:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
You know, I read your post and I started wondering why this player never actually roleplays his character. If his character, as he sais, would never fight this battle, than why does he still lead him into the fight after all?!? Why not simply chicken'ing out of the fight or convincing his fellows to see the obvious of their odds? I don't understand this behavior from a roleplaying point....
That's a good point... With that in mind, I'd accomodate the guy. "Oh, your character would get into this fight? Fine, you just stand there and watch. And don't worry about XP -- you won't get any." 
Then again, I do have a habit of being evil to people that ask for it...
I'm all for doing something like that. Might teach this guy a blunt lesson. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 13:31:06
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
You know, I read your post and I started wondering why this player never actually roleplays his character. If his character, as he sais, would never fight this battle, than why does he still lead him into the fight after all?!? Why not simply chicken'ing out of the fight or convincing his fellows to see the obvious of their odds? I don't understand this behavior from a roleplaying point....
That's a good point... With that in mind, I'd accomodate the guy. "Oh, your character would get into this fight? Fine, you just stand there and watch. And don't worry about XP -- you won't get any."
Then again, I do have a habit of being evil to people that ask for it... |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 12:59:45
You know, I read your post and I started wondering why this player never actually roleplays his character. If his character, as he sais, would never fight this battle, than why does he still lead him into the fight after all?!? Why not simply chicken'ing out of the fight or convincing his fellows to see the obvious of their odds? I don't understand this behavior from a roleplaying point....
Moreover, he should try to remember to differenciate game statistics and character knowledge. In-Character there is no 19th level....
Anyhow, concerning the flow of the game and the atmosphere of game sessions as you discribed them, I agree with what my fellow scribes said. Try settling the matter by talking to him and make sure that everyone in the gaming group including you as the DM can have his share of enjoyment while playing. If he can't understand your point than the only solution will have to be that one of you leaves the gaming group - either he or you.
Good luck in settling matters. |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 04:25:40
I understand that you like to have a regular group you meet with in person, but you should consider RP online. Then it doesn't matter if you are in the same town and easy to leave if you get weirded out.
Talk to the guy...group intervention if necessary (do the other players find him as annoying as you do?...I would) so that it can't be he's right and you're wrong. He can be a big boy and face facts or he can choose to leave. Make the decision his and then you won't have to feel badly about it.
Tough love is the only way some people will ever change. |
| riot the outsider |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 03:02:40
I agree.Talk with him first striaght up and tell him whats up.If he doesn't like it well forget him. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 01:03:00
I had an argumentative guy in the group...he was the main reason I switched to minis and 3.x
Frankly said, if you get tired of him, give him the boot. You're supposed to have fun as a GM as well, and if he is killing the fun for you (alongside everyone else), ask him to leave the group... I know it sounds rough, but IMO that is the only way out if he doesn't change... I tried the role-reversal and so on, well, the complainer/arguer rejected that and so on, and in the end he basically maneuvered himself out, and everybody else in my group is happier without him. |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 23:51:17
He does alright. Not great, but alright. I do believe that if he was DMing for himself, as in there were two of him, one playing and one DMing, the player would still complain. He really isn't happy unless he KNOWS he is going to survive a tough battle, and he is getting big rewards for each battle.
He's easily flustered and never completely satisfied. He's also extremely stubborn. I don't think sitting him down and trying to spell out his problems will help, he would onluy further retreat into his belief that he is right and I am wrong.
I was thinking more along the lines of playing role reversals with him, making him think the adventure was his idea. Maybe ask him more about what kind of adventures he likes, what battles he likes, etc and then trying to work something like that into the campaign. I think he may be more likely to buy into the whole thing, crediting himself with the adventure some, etc and be more likely to be placated. The only issue I have with that is I feel like I have to cater to him or adjust my DMing around him. Which is pretty dumb.
I honestly would like to find new people to game with, the only thing is that the people at the game stores around me are a bit too out there for me. I talked to one guy about gaming groups and he totally wierded me out... |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 21:55:18
IMO, if you haven't already, you need to sit this guy down and spell it out for him, just like you did in this post (let him read the post). If he can't see that he is bing a jerk, then maybe he doesn't need to play as a PC. If he does well as a DM then keep him in that role as long as possible, and maybe find another player in the meantime to groom as a backup DM. D&D should be fun for everyone involved. If it's not, then it's time for the trouble maker to change or leave.
How does he do as a DM? It seems to me if he has trouble dealng with your ideas from the PC point of view, then he'd be less likely to do things he doesn't like while the DM. How challenging and "realistic" does he make the campaigns when he is in charge?
I guess what I am asking is, does he perform well enough as a DM to justify keeping him around and putting up with his BS as a player? |
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