| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 08:36:27
After some discussion on Narathmault led to a look into what came before the Days of Thunder and the Fey creator race i'm going to see if people fancy brainstorming a fey ideas about what Faerun would be like at this time.
So it is before the sarrukh and batrachi and aeree races become established.
The lay of the land i picture as being one massive forested region. The hints are there when reading GHoTR, forests cover massive tracts of Faerun extending from Chult all the way to The Spine of the World.
Of course the land is slightly different. There is no Great Glacier, no Sea of Fallen Stars, the Sword Coastline is probably very different as well (the first and second sundering technically hadn't happened yet).
Now i picture that animals exist in this world, maybe even dinosaurs, and a smattering of primal humans and other creator races. The batrachi still dwell in the oceans at this point, the sarrukh and aeree are probably in a similar position as the humans scrabbling around among the trees in a tribal society of sorts.
Into this primitive land come the Fey creator race through portals from the plane of Faerie. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 01:56:06
just a note, someone on another thread mentioned the hengeyokai race. I'd never really paid attention to them before, because I've never delved deeply into kara-tur lore. However, they are animal shapechangers that have an animal, hybrid, and humanoid form. Possible animal forms include badger, carp cat, crab, crane, dog, fox, hare, monkey, raccoon, rat, sparrow, and weasel. I just searched on all four pages to see if we ever mentioned them, and I don't see them. I can see there definitely being small tribal units of all these different types of hengeyokai in the area, possibly having been decimated by the hags.
Also, I mentioned finding the Shatjan (a reindeer headed race) being mentioned in the horde boxed set, and noting that its similar to the elves who bred with the stag king and started producing stag headed children, and also that race fits the area (and since it was mentioned in the horde box, it likely started in the area).
This gives us
cat people (hengeyokai and catfolk)
fox people (hengeyokai and foxwomen... which may be related)
dog people (gnolls and hengeyokai)
wolf people (wolfweres and Lythari)
badger people (hengeyokai)
"bull" people (manotaurs and possibly minotaurs)
deer people (hybsils and Shatjan)
"bird" people (kenku, hengeyokai <crane & sparrow>..... possibly aarakocraa)
then possibly even small tribes of badger, raccoon, rat and weasel people in hengeyokai
then you've got the fey (plant and fairy) as well. This could be a really interesting campaign. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 14:27:51
Very true, just read the complete divine to double check. No god would favour a creature that doesnt really believe in gods, that would be silly.
Bard seems fine then for the occasional fey creature (although most might just go with expert and focus on musical instruments).
So we have the following classes for beings inhabiting fey dominated areas especially the spirit realms in the east and west (while they last)
Fey: Expert, Bard, Totemist, Binder, Archivist, Spirit Shaman, Druid and Warlock (Unseelie Fey)
Humanoids: All the above plus Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Rogue.
Obviously the creator races of the batrachi, sarrukh and aeree are a law unto themselves and do exactly as they please so they can have any classes.
The primordials and archfey (although i class them as the same) are also exempt from the above since they are already very powerful and in some cases highly intelligent and able to live practically forever so there are no restrictions on them either.
The hags should probably be the first of the proper arcane spellcasters in the spirit realms, with a number of them becoming wizards, hexblades, sorcerers etc etc.
That way even if it were just a few hundred hags they would be able to wreak untold havoc on the fey who are not as strong in the arcane arts. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 02:37:41
Just a minor note: Favoured soul doesn't require a mixed bloodline. That's aasimar race. Favoured soul is just a person that the gods for some reason favored. Granted, it could be due to lineage, but it doesn't HAVE to be. That being said, it requires a god to favor them, so it doesn't really fit the area. It could be a story where such and such god is trying to make inroads and he favors a certain individual, but that'd be the exception. So, either way, it doesn't make much impact.
On the bard, there is a variation in the "Secrets of Pact Magic" that would allow them to practice binding and lose their arcane spellcasting. However, their spell selection is so limited already, I'm not sure it'd be necessary. Also, given that they have to KNOW their spells, there's not going to be a lot of variety there (lets face it, most take the cures and maybe a couple buffs for offense or defense... rarely an overtly offensive magic.) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 21:02:53
I agree with the classes you mention and the reason but of course who the classes apply to is a very big question.
The fey realms includes many varied races (some humanoid, some spirit, some fey, some animal, etc, etc). Anything that can live in harmony with nature and the capricious fey would be welcome.
I don't see fey pursuing classes all that often. They would be interested in beauty, crafts, art, occasionally knowledge, whatever strikes their fancy. So most of your fey if they did take a class would be experts.
Every so often it might strike them as a good idea to better understand animals by being them or bonding with them or learning strange new magics.
As such they might have a smattering of other classes (if they live long enough or devote enough time to their pursuit - they might just get bored).
So all traditional arcane classes are out for normal fey. Those binders and totemists if I understand how you describe them as working sound a good fit because it allows them to borrow powers from other beings without doing a whole lot of research (maybe just reaching an agreement with these beings).
Divine classes are likewise out because of the necessity of belief (not I am not including druid, spirit shaman or other nature based classes)
Cleric Should be completely out for a fey. I don't think I have ever heard of a fey cleric and it seems right given their capricious nature to not want to devote their entire life to one being. Belief is just too much for fey. Idolisation yes, worship no.
Favoured Soul requires somekind of mixed bloodline but with outsiders and I'm just not sure that would or indeed could happen with a fey.
Bard would seem like a good fit if not for the arcane spell research required, but maybe bards in them days didn't bother with many spells, just picked up what they could find.
Warlock works for unseelie corrupted fey for me, their powers seem to come from dark fiendish beings so they are kind of like the binders. I don't know whether they would have to research their spells but even without it their unlimited fireball ability is pretty darn awesome.
The martial classes and rogue classes don't really work for me for fey either, what is the point of them, what benefit do they bring to a fey nomadic lifestyle and they require constant honing and repetition to master skills which isn't great to keep interest.
And then the druid, even with the requirement to research spells, the ability to change shape and commune with nature makes it a must have for the fey.
But most fey I picture as being experts with one or two levels in random classes depending on what tribe they belonged to during their lives.
Of course their are the few humanoids that live with fey. I reckon the more primitive humanoids and creator races would have lived with the fey or at least inhabited the same area without conflict and thus interacted on some level.
This excludes the batrachi, sarrukh, and aeree because they look to have taken to civilisation very quickly and that doesn't mix well with fey.
So humans, goblins, and dare I say it orcs (who arrived before elves but only in western faerun). These guys would probably have adopted some of the fey ways and tried to learn from them so expect human druids, spirit shaman, totemists, binders, and maybe even the odd warlock.
Of course the primitive humanoids are also more than capable of picking up the martial classes by themselves.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 20:36:47
In reading the secrets of pact magic, I'm thinking it would be a good idea to lay out what kinds of character classes would fit the Spirit Realms
From the PH - nearly every class would work, though the wizard would be a stretch unless you vastly reduced his spell list (since so much magic isn't developed yet), and the monk wouldn't seem to fit. Clerics could work, but they should be rare in this area.
From heroes of horror - the dread necromancer might work amongst the giants and hags. The archivist could also work as one of the earliest forms of divine servants who might have developed the spells that later became standards for clerics and druids.
From the Complete Series - the warlock, warmage, wu jen, scout, spellthief, favored soul, shugenja, spirit shaman, and hexblade . Of all these, the spirit shaman would seem the best fit. Favored souls would be exceedingly rare.
From PH2 - beguiler, dragon shaman, and duskblade (with the beguiler probably a common fey class)
From Magic of Incarnum - totemists
From Tome of Magic - Binders and maybe the shadowcasters. My problems with true namers would be with the system needing work, not the concept.
From Secrets of Pact Magic - nearly all the classes work, but I feel that there are 4 that just scream this area. Spirit binder is nearly the same thing as the binder from ToM, binding multiple spirits and gaining their abilities. Unbound witch would work well with the hags. Soul wizard would make a very good replacement for the standard wizard in this time, as they learn to bind a spirit to themselves that they can change daily, plus they gain a small number of castable wizard spells, and they can "modify" a spirit to swap out a standard ability of its to say become one of its memorized spells (say magic missile as an example). The Occult Priest is perhaps the most interesting... essentially, they bind spirits, but they also learn spells of a clerical domain after a certain amount of time (over time they learn a few more domains). The best part is that they essentially think the gods are just great spirits and that they can become them. After a certain amount of levels, they can begin imbuing a handful of others with the ability to cast a small number of low level divine spells. Finally, after like lvl 13, if they die and aren't reincarnated soon, their spirit actually becomes a bindable spirit which can provide powers to people that bind him/it.
Oh, one other note, one of the things that this "secrets of pact magic" mentions is that the "spirits" aka vestiges are essentially timeless once they become a vestige. So, essentially, they can be bound as a spirit even before they are born. If I had to explain it in game mechanics, I'd say that the plane of time and the place where vestiges go don't even try to be in synch. The one rule I'd put in there would be that while a being is alive, its own spirit/vestige isn't available (to prevent someone binding himself). BTW, I'm really liking this book. I definitely recommend spending a couple bucks to get the PDF from paizo. The basics are very similar to the binder in ToM, but there's so much more to it. So far, I've only been through the classes and I'm up to the spirit list in this book (but I'm skipping ahead to the prestige classes).
You might do the classes from Tome of Battle, but they tend to identify with a more structured environment. I also wouldn't recommend psionics as it depends on too orderly of a society in general.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 10:44:35
There we go, sorted out the fey, the society, and the history on the front page.
I was never happy with creating an ethereal fey race so thats gone. Instead its all based around this pact and totem magic.
No reason why you have to be a vestige or a primordial or even a spirit to be the subject of this binding.
I figure no one bothers to bind a human or a deer because they will get very little in the way of power from it. However in early years the fey probably did it just to see what abilities these strange creatures would grant.
This binding ignited the spark of intelligence in the creator races, and caused Telthors to be formed from the animals when they died (although not in every case). That way we have no need for a new race of fey. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 14:07:32
Seems plausible enough I just went with the split personality becoming split beings as an idea to explain why there are so many powerful treants in the surrounding forests.
The true relkath remaining as a vestige doesnt really violate any references we have about him. He can still be worshipped by the aglarondan elves even if he is dead and rillithane can bind him later and make him his servant. None of that is stopped by his death.
One of the splinter spirits could merge with the forests of rashemen and become the woodman. Maybe even the nentyarch is a leftover spirit or merged with one later.
One thinh that does strike me. What if the stone menhirs across the realms including the ones in aglarond were made by the fey.
They dont really match the architectural style of any other races and no other race was as widespread. Just a thought |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 20:42:44
Hmmmm, I do like that idea of "splitting" Relkath. What if portions of his spirit was absorbed and became individual awakened trees, but the "overall" Relkath became a vestige. Thus, infinite people could become a "branch of Relkath".
on the Ba'etith idea, I do wonder if the people of these spirit realms didn't study magic as incarnum users (specifically totemists) do. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 19:52:36
-42,000 DR: The ice melts enough to uncover green land and forests quickly begin to emerge. The fey take to wandering much more frequently in Toril possessing the primitive humanoids which over time sparks intelligence in these creature.
- The Seelie Court (ruled by Titania) set up a winter palace in the Hordelands Basin which is now a vast wetlands paradise. The planar boundary between Faerie and Faerun is thinnest here; allowing one to walk from one plane to the next seamlessly without even realising a planar transition had occurred.
- The Le Shay migrate to Toril from Faerie to a land in what is now the Trackless Sea. (This land is sunk when the elves create Evermeet, only a few Le Shay on the Moonshae Isles survive that catastrophe which we know about from GHoTR).
-35,000 DR: The Sarrukh establish Okoth in Mulhorand. They quickly begin experimenting on other races to produce perfect slave creatures. One line of experimentation involves merging Telthors with humanoids. In the Shaar region this experiment results in the Wemic race being created.
-34,500 DR: Sarrukh from Okoth are established in Thay by this time and begin eyeing the Greater Riildath forest for expansion. Unable to stand the cold climate of the area and therefore unable to field an army to combat the fey defenders of the forest the Sarrukh begin to drain the Lake of Mists in the Hordelands basin, legends hold they drained the lake into the Underdark using portals.
- Sarrukh also continue their experiments with merging Telthor and humanoid and create the centaur race.
- Sarrukh establish a network of caverns beneath the Greater Riildath, one entry point to the network is located in Narathmault where they abduct fey and Telthor for their experiments (to detract attention from themselves far in the south). They kidnap fey creatures and carry them underground where they are dissected, mutated and merged in the name of magical discovery.
-34,100 DR: The Okoth empire of Sarrukh ends, a few isolated outposts are left including a sizable group of several hundred Sarrukh located beneath the Greater Riildath forest that are continuing their experiments on the fey.
-34,000 DR: The fey realms in the West of Faerun are all but extinguished by this time thanks to the encroachment of the creator races in all lands between the Sword Coast and the Inner Seas (Sea of Fallen Stars today). Small pockets remain in isolated areas. Most fey begin migrating across the Inner Seas to the Spirit Realms in the East.
- Chupoclops had spent a millennia stalking and devouring the people of Faerie and Faerun. The Seelie Court set Fenmarel Mestarine to track this fell creature so that they might end this menace. With the help of a being named Araushnee, Fenmarel finally locates Chupoclops' scent entering a cavern network in the Narathmault in the Greater Riildath forest.
There Fenmarel and Araushnee discover the horrors of the Sarrukh and their experimentation on the fey. Alerting the protectors of the forest, the primordial guardians collapse large portions of the cavern network isolating the Sarrukh and Chupoclops from the surface.
- A session of the Seelie Court is held in the Hordelands basin where Titania herself ponders over what to do with Chupoclops and the evil Sarrukh. The Seelie Court decide on removing their threat form the face of the world forever and so the entire cavern network beneath the Riildath is shifted into another plane trapping the creatures within in the Ethereal Plane. Chupoclops spends the next few millennia feeding off the Sarrukh spirits and their experiments.
- For her aid in tracking Chupoclops, Araushnee earns the respect and desire of Corellon Larethian, leader of the Seldarine tribe. The results of their union are the Lythar and Ilythar clans of wild elves.
-31,000 DR: Tearfall occurs. Ao shifts Abeir and Toril apart to save the planet from destruction in the war between batrachi and primordial. In doing so Ao shifts Faerie further away from Toril, creatures can no longer merely walk between the two planes in places where the veil between the two worlds is thin. From this moment on Portals are required for transport between the two planes.
- The impact of the meteor also shifts the planetary alignment and sends up vast clouds of dust. For the next millennia temperatures around Toril drop considerably which slow the amount of melt water entering the Hordelands basin which accelerates the rate at which that vast wetlands is drying out.
- The destruction of large tracts of land and forest around the coast of modern day Aglarond cause pain that threatens to shatter the mind of Relkath of the Branches, protector and manifestation of the Greater Riildath forest
-30,000 DR: Araushnee is banished to the Abyss for attacking the Seldarine. She becomes the demon queen Lolth.
- Annam sires his giant primordial children with Othea and founds Ostoria in their honour.
- Fenmarel Mestarine retreats to Faerun through a portal ashamed of his relationship with Araushnee/Lolth and her betrayal of the Seldarine.
-28,000 DR: Ostoria reaches it's height stretching from the present day Cold Lands to the Vilhon Reach, although no giant dares enter the Greater Riildath forest.
c. –27000 DR: Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time). Although most green elves are content to remain in small scattered tribes, one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to
carve out a small kingdom in the south. The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash remains a shining beacon of elf culture for millennia.
- The Lythar clan of wild elves enter a portal in the Shaar and appear in the Unapproachable East in the Greater Riildath forest.
- Cegliune enters Toril through a portal from Faerie, desperate to escape the shadow of Titania. Arriving in the Unapproachable east she sets out to destroy all that the fey have created on Toril. Cegliune begins searching for disaffected fey and evil creatures of all races.
-26,000 DR: The thousand year war between dragons and the giants of Ostoria begins.
- Cegliune encounters the Narathmault and the entrance to the collapsed Sarrukh caverns beneath the Greater Riildath. She encounters the ethereal spirit of Chupoclops and the two evils enter into a pact of mutual aid.
-25,999 DR: The hill giant son of Annam loses his subkingdom of Ostoria to the flight of Red dragons in the early stages of the war. For his incompetence and stupidity he is exiled from Ostoria and forced to wander Toril. His radiant (non identical) twin brother chooses to accompany him and the outcast hill giants in the hope that he will be able to save his brother from his stupidity and anger.
- The hill giant son of Annam and his twin brother, and the hill giants flee south into the Riildath forest. There they encounter Cegliune and the desperate primordial giant brothers and Cegliune aid each other in their endeavours. They pollute the hill giant race by mating with Cegliune. The unknown radiant brother works with Cegliune's dark magic abilities to curse the Fomorian and Verbeeg giant kin into their current twisted forms in the hopes of currying favour with the sons of Annam. Instead he himself is cursed by his giant brothers so that his appearance matches his twisted heart and his name is stricken from all written records of the giant realms.
- Hags begin to appear in the Greater Riildath forest. The first and most powerful of Cegliune's hag children are fully grown twin girls that quickly take to the arcane arts and soon their abilities begin to rival their mother.
-25,900 DR: After 99 years of magical experimentation Cegliune and her twin daughters create the first Night Twist trees using the blood of Chupoclops. The trees are planted in the Riildath forest and begin slaying any being that slumbers nearby with twisted nightmares of their worst fears given form.
-25,400 DR: Fey numbers in the lands around modern day The Great Dale begin to dwindle as larger numbers of Night Twists are planted in the forests above. The lesser fey turn to the primordial protectors of the forest for aid but even these great creatures are at a loss as to the source of the deaths.
- A conclave is called by all the "lords" of the spirit realms. During the meeting a twisted and evil hag announces herself as the daughter of Cegliune. Concerned that her mother is wary of her growing power she escaped to warn the fey of what Cegliune has done in return for their protection. Secretly this daughter had made a pact with an infernal being of immense power to provide her with power enough to surpass and survive her mother. In return she was to stop the reduction in soul traffic of humanoids in the Riildath (what would normally pass to the outer planes instead is being eaten by Chupoclops).
- The primordials and their subjects and the hag princess and her hag rebels march to Narathmault and the Riildath. Casualties are high among the fey and the humanoids as those that sleep are quickly slain.
-25,399 DR: The Battle of the Narathmault: The forces of Bheuristay and the spirit realms engage in the caverns beneath Narathmault. The seven primordials that make it to the central chamber die battling Chupoclops who they kill with the last stroke. Cegliune flees leaving her children to disperse after the battle is lost. The Hag Princess leaves for the outer planes with a number of her followers.
- Fenmarel Mestarine rewards those of clan Lythar by altering their essence enough to distinguish them from the rest of Araushnee's children, erasing the taint of Lolth from within. From that day forward the lythari are able to take the form of wolves and spread east and west across Faerun.
- Magnar the Bear similarly rewards his humanoid followers for their dedication by fusing them with the spirit of the bear. These bear like people initially choose to defend the caverns beneath Narathmault but soon spread to other lands through the Underdark.
- The death of Relkath of the Branches splits his form into several beings each representing an individual portion of the Greater Riildath wood, because of this separation he is now known as Relkath of the infinite branches. Only Relkath of Aglarond and the Woodman of Rashemen survived into the modern era.
There we go I added in Relkath's damaged mind and hopefully sorted out the wording of the giants and the hags section so that I didn't violate any canon because I haven't specifically stated that any races were born or used any names so people can choose whoever they want to sire such people or perform those actions.
And then at the end I added a little flourish to Relkath's story as it struck me odd that he was called Relkath of the "infinite branches" and some kind of split could be the cause of such a name.
Anyway if that's the history finished we can carry on with the societal stuff.
A thought has just occurred to me that is slightly related, given that we think binding of creatures and spirits is the primary means of magic in the early realms because its easy and less dangerous than magical experimentation.
The various creator races will have created different spells over time that catered to their needs. We have no definitive statement of purpose for the Ba'etith. What if they decided to collect and catalogue all these spells to distribute to all for the betterment of the world. This would make them a very early organisation devoted to Mystryl's ideal of stopping magic being kept secret (unless its too dangerous).
Anyway that's a thought for another topic I think.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Dec 2013 : 11:39:11
Well why do gods grant their followers spells. By increasing the power of one's allies you increase your own power. Some of the more greedy and grasping primordial would want material gains but for the fey primordial I think simply having another pair of hands to protect the natural world would be reason enough to form a pact. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Dec 2013 : 11:24:28
Yeah, I'm liking this idea even more with the idea of them making pacts with primordials. I agree that most telthors should only be able to make a pact with a single individual. Also, if a telthor is slain, then one must learn the "seal" of a new telthor (which would make people protect the telthors of the world). Your note of primordials as possible source of binding is intriguing as well, though in that instance, what do they get in return (i.e. the telthors experience life again.... I'm thinking offering up jewels, gold, or even blood and/or soul sacrifice)?
This brings up an idea for another type of Rashemi wychlaran... one that could definitely have a dark side. I think I'm going to start another thread to discuss that. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Dec 2013 : 10:45:03
Well this far back in time I think pact magic was by far the safest and easiest means of performing magic.
The common spells we have in the modern realms today may not have been researched yet so traditional arcane casters would have to perform a lot of research to learn even a simple spell and there would be almost no one around to help them.
I think divine casters would face a similar problem as well.
However in exchange for allowing a creature some measure of control over your body or in exchange for something of value, you gain powers that creature bestows upon you without the danger of blowing yourself up because you got a somatic gesture wrong.
An individual telthor might only be able to be bound by one person but a primordial could have pacts with hundreds of binders depending on its power level. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Dec 2013 : 07:54:11
I recently bought "secrets of pact magic" and I've started reading it tonight. One idea that's popping in my head is that maybe there's a bit of a trait to telthors. What if, similar to vestiges, telthors can be temporarily bound to a living host and imbue said host with certain abilities. Thus, there may have been a lot of pact magic wielders long ago who were say binding the spirits of the "great deer X", etc... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Dec 2013 : 03:19:57
I'd recommend against the mixing of Ruk & Grolantor as the same individual, only because canon lore clearly indicates they are separate entities born of different mothers in the realms. I can understand you may want to mix them in your homebrew realms.
In my history, I had stressed that the tearfall was a big stresser for Relkath of the Infinite Branches, because the sudden destruction caused the mass destruction of a lot of plants and sank large portions of what would have been his kingdom. Given that elves weren't really here in the realms yet, this could have been a very big strike against the fey in the East. I'd like to keep that in there, because I think there's some potential there that I'm not seeing yet for maybe some other stuff.
I'd change the phrasing of the part about the hag race being birthed in the realms. First, there are many different types of hags, and secondly because Cegilune should have had followers already. Preferably though, perhaps there is a specific subset of hags that was birthed on Toril. We know that the Bheur and Shrieking hags are specific to Toril, for instance. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 21:02:38
Okay onto the latter half of the history of the Spirit Realms.
-31,000 DR: Tearfall occurs. Ao shifts Abeir and Toril apart to save the planet from destruction in the war between batrachi and primordial. In doing so Ao shifts Faerie further away from Toril, creatures can no longer merely walk between the two planes in places where the veil between the two worlds is thin. From this moment on Portals are required for transport between the two planes.
- The impact of the meteor also shifts the planetary alignment and sends up vast clouds of dust. For the next millennia temperatures around Toril drop considerably which slow the amount of melt water entering the Hordelands basin which accelerates the rate at which that vast wetlands is drying out.
-30,000 DR: Araushnee is banished to the Abyss for attacking the Seldarine. She becomes the demon queen Lolth.
- Annam sires his giant primordial children with Othea and founds Ostoria in their honour.
- Fenmarel Mestarine retreats to Faerun through a portal ashamed of his relationship with Araushnee/Lolth and her betrayal of the Seldarine.
-28,000 DR: Ostoria reaches it's height stretching from the present day Cold Lands to the Vilhon Reach, although no giant dares enter the Greater Riildath forest.
c. –27000 DR: Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time). Although most green elves are content to remain in small scattered tribes, one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to
carve out a small kingdom in the south. The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash remains a shining beacon of elf culture for millennia.
- The Lythar clan of wild elves enter a portal in the Shaar and appear in the Unapproachable East in the Greater Riildath forest.
- Cegliune enters Toril through a portal from Faerie, desperate to escape the shadow of Titania. Arriving in the Unapproachable east she sets out to destroy all that the fey have created on Toril. Cegliune begins searching for disaffected fey and evil creatures of all races.
-26,000 DR: The thousand year war between dragons and the giants of Ostoria begins.
- Cegliune encounters the Narathmault and the entrance to the collapsed Sarrukh caverns beneath the Greater Riildath. She encounters the ethereal spirit of Chupoclops and the two evils enter into a pact of mutual aid.
-25,999 DR: Ruk/Grolantor, son of Annam loses his subkingdom of Ostoria to the flight of Red dragons in the early stages of the war. For his incompetence and stupidity Ruk is exiled from Ostoria and forced to wander Toril. His radiant (non identical) twin brother chooses to accompany Ruk and the outcast hill giants in the hope that he will be able to save his brother from his stupidity and anger.
- Ruk, Karontor, and the hill giants flee south into the Riildath forest. There they encounter Cegliune and the desperate primordial giant brothers aid each other in their endeavours. Ruk pollutes the hill giant race by mating with Cegliune. Karontor uses Cegliune's dark magic abilities to curse the Fomorian and Verbeeg giant kin into their current twisted forms in the hopes of currying favour with the sons of Annam. Instead Karontor is himself cursed by his giant brothers so that his appearance matches his twisted heart.
- The hag race is birthed beneath the Riildath forest to Cegliune. The first and most powerful of her children are fully grown twin girls that quickly take to the arcane arts and soon their abilities begin to rival their mother.
-25,900 DR: After 99 years of magical experimentation Cegliune and her twin daughters create the first Night Twist trees using the blood of Chupoclops. The trees are planted in the Riildath forest and begin slaying any being that slumbers nearby with twisted nightmares of their worst fears given form.
-25,400 DR: Fey numbers in the lands around modern day The Great Dale begin to dwindle as larger numbers of Night Twists are planted in the forests above. The lesser fey turn to the primordial protectors of the forest for aid but even these great creatures are at a loss as to the source of the deaths.
- A conclave is called by all the "lords" of the spirit realms. During the meeting a twisted and evil hag announces herself as the daughter of Cegliune. Concerned that her mother is wary of her growing power she escaped to warn the fey of what Cegliune has done in return for their protection. Secretly this daughter had made a pact with an infernal being of immense power to provide her with power enough to surpass and survive her mother. In return she was to stop the reduction in soul traffic of humanoids in the Riildath (what would normally pass to the outer planes instead is being eaten by Chupoclops).
- The primordials and their subjects and the hag princess and her hag rebels march to Narathmault and the Riildath. Casualties are high among the fey and the humanoids as those that sleep are quickly slain.
-25,399 DR: The Battle of the Narathmault: The forces of Bheuristay and the spirit realms engage in the caverns beneath Narathmault. Seven primordials that make it to the central chamber die battling Chupoclops who they kill with the last stroke. Cegliune flees leaving her children to disperse after the battle is lost. The Hag Princess leaves for the outer planes with a number of her followers.
Fenmarel Mestarine rewards those of clan Lythar by altering their essence enough to distinguish them from the rest of Araushnee's children, erasing the taint of Lolth from within. From that day forward the lythari are able to take the form of wolves and spread east and west across Faerun.
Well that's just a few ideas. The spirit realms needs to be over in Impiltur and the Great Dale before -25,000 because at that point the rage of dragons occurs which devastates the Ashanath portion of the Greater Riildath, and their humanoid and hobgoblin subjects deforest the rest.
Any thoughts or ideas of improvements?
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 19:49:15
Okey dokey, hopefully a final draft of the early bits
-42,000 DR: The ice melts enough to uncover green land and forests quickly begin to emerge. The fey take to wandering much more frequently in Toril possessing the primitive humanoids which over time sparks intelligence in these creature.
- The Seelie Court (ruled by Titania) set up a winter palace in the Hordelands Basin which is now a vast wetlands paradise. The planar boundary between Faerie and Faerun is thinnest here; allowing one to walk from one plane to the next seamlessly without even realising a planar transition had occurred.
- The Le Shay migrate to Toril from Faerie to a land in what is now the Trackless Sea. (This land is sunk when the elves create Evermeet, only a few Le Shay on the Moonshae Isles survive that catastrophe which we know about from GHoTR).
-35,000 DR: The Sarrukh establish Okoth in Mulhorand. They quickly begin experimenting on other races to produce perfect slave creatures. One line of experimentation involves merging Telthors with humanoids. In the Shaar region this experiment results in the Wemic race being created.
-34,500 DR: Sarrukh from Okoth are established in Thay by this time and begin eyeing the Greater Riildath forest for expansion. Unable to stand the cold climate of the area and therefore unable to field an army to combat the fey defenders of the forest the Sarrukh begin to drain the Lake of Mists in the Hordelands basin, legends hold they drained the lake into the Underdark using portals.
- Sarrukh also continue their experiments with merging Telthor and humanoid and create the centaur race.
- Sarrukh establish a network of caverns beneath the Greater Riildath, one entry point to the network is located in Narathmault where they abduct fey and Telthor for their experiments (to detract attention from themselves far in the south). They kidnap fey creatures and carry them underground where they are dissected, mutated and merged in the name of magical discovery.
-34,100 DR: The Okoth empire of Sarrukh ends, a few isolated outposts are left including a sizable group of several hundred Sarrukh located beneath the Greater Riildath forest that are continuing their experiments on the fey.
-34,000 DR: The fey realms in the West of Faerun are all but extinguished by this time thanks to the encroachment of the creator races in all lands between the Sword Coast and the Inner Seas (Sea of Fallen Stars today). Small pockets remain in isolated areas. Most fey begin migrating across the Inner Seas to the Spirit Realms in the East.
- Chupoclops had spent a millennia stalking and devouring the people of Faerie and Faerun. The Seelie Court set Fenmarel Mestarine to track this fell creature so that they might end this menace. With the help of a being named Araushnee, Fenmarel finally locates Chupoclops' scent entering a cavern network in the Narathmault in the Greater Riildath forest.
There Fenmarel and Araushnee discover the horrors of the Sarrukh and their experimentation on the fey. Alerting the protectors of the forest, the primordial guardians collapse large portions of the cavern network isolating the Sarrukh and Chupoclops from the surface.
- A session of the Seelie Court is held in the Hordelands basin where Titania herself ponders over what to do with Chupoclops and the evil Sarrukh. The Seelie Court decide on removing their threat form the face of the world forever and so the entire cavern network beneath the Riildath is shifted into another plane trapping the creatures within in the Ethereal Plane. Chupoclops spends the next few millennia feeding off the Sarrukh spirits and their experiments.
- For her aid in tracking Chupoclops, Araushnee earns the respect and desire of Corellon Larethian, leader of the Seldarine tribe. The results of their union are the Lythar and Ilythar clans of wild elves.
-31,000 DR: Tearfall occurs. Ao shifts Abeir and Toril apart to save the planet from destruction in the war between batrachi and primordial. In doing so Ao shifts Faerie further away from Toril, creatures can no longer merely walk between the two planes in places where the veil between the two worlds is thin. From this moment on Portals are required for transport between the two planes.
- The impact of the meteor also shifts the planetary alignment and sends up vast clouds of dust. For the next millennia temperatures around Toril drop considerably which slow the amount of melt water entering the Hordelands basin which accelerates the rate at which that vast wetlands is drying out.
-30,000 DR: Araushnee is banished to the Abyss for attacking the Seldarine. She becomes the demon queen Lolth.
- Annam sires his giant primordial children with Othea and founds Ostoria in their honour.
- Fenmarel Mestarine retreats to Faerun through a portal ashamed of his relationship with Araushnee/Lolth and her betrayal of the Seldarine.
-28,000 DR: Ostoria reaches it's height stretching from the present day Cold Lands to the Vilhon Reach, although no giant dares enter the Greater Riildath forest.
c. –27000 DR: Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time). Although most green elves are content to remain in small scattered tribes, one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to
carve out a small kingdom in the south. The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash remains a shining beacon of elf culture for millennia.
- The Lythar clan of wild elves enter a portal in the Shaar and appear in the Unapproachable East in the Greater Riildath forest.
-26,000 DR: The thousand year war between dragons and the giants of Ostoria begins.
So up next is the end of the Spirit Realms and the Riildath. Involving Chupoclops, Cegliune etc
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 05:22:59
I'm liking where this is going with the entrapping of Chupoclops in collapsed caverns. It gives a nod to him being too powerful for the gods to kill at the time, and possibly they tricked him into going there. I'd prefer though that the people of the spirit realms to have still killed the Sarrukh in Narathmault, sacrificing them in dark rituals which will force their spirits to not attain the rest they would receive by being accepted by the Sarrukh gods. Maybe Chup is lured in there by the sheer number of spirits and then Fenmarel and Auraushnee "drop the entryway". Maybe wherever he's trapped is a kind of ethereal/prime crossover area, and he's effectively stuck half in one world and half in the other somehow.
On the night twists, they're still trees, and they live in very moist ground. They'd need to be above ground. Still, wouldn't be a problem for the hags to start spreading or perverting trees above ground (maybe its some weird covey ritual using Chup's blood that turns an existing sentient tree into a night twist).
The rest sounds ok in my sleep addled state right now, but I'll try to look at it again tomorrow. Oh, and I do like the pointing out that the tearfall would have dried out the hordelands even more. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 21:37:04
Very true about the elves, cant violate that date, so Lythar and Ilythar both arrive on Toril at the same time probably in the south somewhere in the Shaar.
Thankfully there is at least one portal between The Shaar and the Unapproachable East (Shaundalar and Ashanath) for which we have no creation date so it could have been created by the Lythar as they moved north into self imposed exile.
Also I only entered in the Le Shay bit as a nod to GHoTR which places the le shay in the moonshaes, and notes a fey empire existing from -34,000 to the present day so I was trying to reconcile our idea that the fey realms existed much earlier with GHoTR's statement that the fey empire existed in -34,000 (i.e. that GHoTR was only documenting the Le Shay empire and not counting anything to do with the spirit realms.
However I'm quite happy to remove that if it confuses things.
Now as for our differing interpretations of Chupoclops.
How about we merge the two, so he feeds on and indeed wipes out the Sarrukh encroachment in the Unapproachable East and is then bound to the ethereal plane in the area centred on the Narathmault.
So how about this entered into the timeline instead of where I put him at -32,000
c -34,100 DR: After millennia of stalking the people of Faerie and Faerun; the elder evil Chupoclops is finally tracked to Faerun by Araushnee with the help of Fenmarel. He is chased into a network of tunnels dug beneath the Greater Riildath by the Sarrukh where he butchers the reptilians wholesale leaving nothing but languishing spirits in his wake.
-34,000 DR: Seeking help from beings of power in the Greater Riildath; Araushnee, Fenmarel Mestarine and a number of other beings collapse the tunnels and entryways beneath the Greater Riildath, trapping Chupoclops in his primary retreat in Narathmault. There; using the power of the Seelie Court, Chupoclops is banished to the Ethereal Plane to end his threat to Faerie once and for all.
- Chupoclops spends the next millennia feeding off the Sarrukh spirits and their experiments in the caves beneath the Greater Riildath.
So this way we have Chupoclops bound to the Narathmault (which is important for Lolth and Wendonai later and was the original idea that formed the spirit realms. The Sarrukh are heavily involved in the early spirit realms and not only cause the destruction of large parts of the spirit realms they also go on to feed Chupoclops and make him powerful.
And specifically Chupoclops is bound to the plane of ghosts by gods (Faerie gods) which is stated in his write up.
Now had a few thoughts about Chupoclops' demise. I was thinking of a more eastern orientated kind of battle than just a war (Realms history is full of wars between realms I would prefer this was different). So how about a seven samurai kind of story. That way it links to the 3 heroes and 4 villains you like.
I just don't picture big battles in this area but, having Cegliune and Bheuristay centred on the tunnels around the Narathmault would give that in a way.
So we have Cegliune discover Chupoclops and enter into an agreement with him. He gives her the means to destroy the spirit realms and she helps him get spirits and thus they both get their revenge on the Fey. The motivation for this is from Markus' idea that Cegliune is a sister of sorts to Titania and being an unseelie fey horrible jealous and twisted because of it.
So Chupoclops gives Cegliune the secrets to creating Night Twists. Cegliune in turn begins populating the caves beneath Riildath (although these caves are less extensive after being collapsed earlier) with night twists which begin killing off the fey above ground. Grolantor/Ruk and his brother encounter Cegliune and the hag races are birthed (although we don't have to state that Grolantor specifically birthed them). These hags also begin murdering fey in the night from the caverns. Basically Bheuristay becomes the fey realms worst nightmare.
Even worse with the Tearfall Faerun loses its close connections with Faerie and the Seelie Court and the Hordelands basin begins to dry out and fey leave the area.
Now this is where I think we might differ. These night twists would kill anything, so goblins and humans and anyone else vulnerable to it is kept out of the Riildath forest. Particularly the goblins and humans have to flee to the mountains which comes in handy for when dragons arrive on the scene and create hobgoblins.
Finally the fey realms grow wise to Cegliune's plan thanks to a hag daughter of Cegliune that betrays her mother and tells the fey who and what is killing them all and how.
This hag daughter also made contact with infernal powers because the souls of beings in the area were being stolen and not available to the outer planes (Chupoclops was eating them). In exchange for power she and her hag followers agree to solve the problem.
The primordial protectors of the forest, the hag and her followers, are all led by Fenmarel Mestarine and his loyal Lythar elves to Narathmault.
One by one the fey army are picked off by the night twists or the hags of Bheuristay. Finally only seven primordials are left and the hag and elven followers.
The titanic battle with Chupoclops goes according to the tome of magic. Cegliune abandons Chupoclops in the end and the hags disperse (and are later pushed out of the region by warring dragon forces).
Most of the primordials do of course come back to life or ascend to godhood, but I was thinking about something special for Relkath.
We have many treantish primordials in the area, indeed Rashemen's woodman is an entire forest in one tree. So what if Relkath's death fragments him into different beings.
Anyways that's just my idea to reconcile the two, we get a small war between Bheuristay and the fey realms and we keep Chupoclops and the seven heroes killing him but his threat is kept until the very end of the fey realms in Impiltur and the Great Dale. After Chups death it would be the time of the dragon overlords and the destruction of the Greater Riildath so the fey realms should be gone by then. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 21:56:07
I still like the idea of Chupoclops being in the realms and eating spirits there. The easiest change would just be to have him flee to Toril (instead of being banished there) and thereby escape Fenmarel and Auraushnee. He begins feeding on the Sarrukh spirits left behind in Dun-Tharos, so they can't track him by his grazing nature. Essentially, he holes up and hides and possibly something in Narathmault makes him magically hidden. Later he does the night twists, which attracts the attention of Relkath. Relkath then call upon the Seelie Court, and they all send him to the ethereal. Hell, when Relkath calls upon the Seelie Court, they may send over Fenmarel to aid Relkath.
Actually, nothing in what I wrote actually put a date to Chupoclops' death. The only date I put to things was to him being sent to the ethereal. For all I care, he could sit in the ethereal for 20,000 years before he finally has to die and become a vestige. However, you are right, he didn't have as good of an effect in driving the spirits westward. He does have some interaction with the Great Covey of Bheuristahl however, whenever they begin using his blood to give some of the hags the ability to become ethereal. Its stated that he requires sacrifices to do this... perhaps that could use some sprucing up by saying that the hags begin harvesting telthors (fey spirits that can become ethereal) in conjunction with the blood of Chupoclops. Since the hags are in Bheuristahl/Narathmault/Dun-Tharos, this could have the same effect of driving the spirits westward. The hags may also discover a ritual that enables them to turn telthors into particularly powerful larvae, which can then in turn be twisted into extremely powerful fiends. Then throw in that religion is slowly encroaching into the area via the giants of Helligheim, the ogres and trolls worshipping Vaprak, the gnolls worshipping Yeenoghu, and that these beings are powerful enough that they may be killing off many of the more spiritual beings (such as the Lythari, the catfolk, the few remaining surface quaggoth). Essentially, the Spirit Realms begins falling under the hold of what most today would consider evil, brutish races who worship cruel gods and fiends. The Lythari are forced to flee into what becomes the hordelands. Many millennia later the area becomes tamed by the Yuir elves in the Yuirwood and the elves of Lethyr (in Thesk/Narfell), though the Ilythiiri in Narathmault probably had a hand in destabilizing the other powers in the region as well.
The reason I put the Lythari coming to the realms in -27000 DR is that the GHotR puts this as when the fey began sending the first elves over. This being canon and specifying the Ilythiiri, I'd be hardset against changing it. If you'd like for the Ilythiiri and Lythari to be ashamed of themselves, however, that's totally doable. Maybe they're shunned in the feywild. Maybe they had to form their own community. Whatever works for you, but they just simply shouldn't come over before -27000 DR.
below from GHotR
c. –27000 DR Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time). Although most green elves are content to remain in small scattered tribes, one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to
carve out a small kingdom in the south. The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash remains a shining beacon of elf culture for millennia.
I'd be really careful with establishing major fey holdings in these early times (even the LeShay, etc...). I think we had the right idea with what we originally came up with in there being small tribes or communities of beings that spring up / cross over. If a lot of these early "fey" are simply plant beings, such as Relkath of the Infinite Branches, then The Sarrukh don't necessarily destroy them simply because they don't run across them too often (because they don't spot the living tree for the rest of the forest). If a lot of the other "fey" are more animal like, they may also get overlooked. Let's face it, for all the Sarrukh's power, they don't have the sheer population of modern day realms. The Sarrukh are simply more successful than most other empires because they're one of the first ones to exhibit anything resembling coordination as a species. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 20:44:50
Okay first attempt at reconciling as many of our various ideas as possible.
So lets go with Ed's idea (and Markus') that Toril and Faerie were much more closely linked in the past than it is at present.
So since the beginning when Abeir Toril was formed we have had fey just wandering through the thin veil into Toril and back again as the fancy takes them.
However prior to -42,000 the land was all ice for many, many millennia so the only beings that really stayed on a permanent basis were the Uldra.
Places where the veil were thinnest include the Hordelands basin and an unnamed land now in the Trackless Sea but was at one point part of Faerun before the elves sundered the land.
-42,000 DR: The ice melts enough to uncover green land and forests quickly begin to emerge. The fey take to wandering much more frequently in Toril possessing the primitive humanoids which over time sparks intelligence in these creature.
- The Seelie Court (ruled by Titania) set up a winter palace in the Hordelands Basin which is now a vast wetlands paradise.
- The Le Shay migrate to Toril to land in what is now the Trackless Sea. (This land is sunk when the elves create Evermeet, only a few Le Shay on the Moonshae Isles survive that catastrophe which we know about from GHoTR).
The reason I choose this far back in time is because my personal favourite plot hook is the fey actually bringing intelligence to the other creator races by possessing them and igniting the spark of sentience. That would take time, and plus Ed has stated Toril and Faerie were closely linked so it makes sense they be linked right from the start.
-35,000 DR: The Sarrukh establish Okoth in Mulhorand. They quickly begin experimenting on other races to produce perfect slave creatures. One line of experimentation involves merging Telthors with humanoids. In the Shaar region this experiment results in the wemic race being created.
I chose the Sarrukh to have created Wemics (and later centaur) for two reasons. Firstly the wemic and centaur are both humanoid (not fey) and if it was created by a fey creature, particularly a benevolent fey creature i would assume it would create a fey. Secondly is the placement, both centaur and wemic are in Sarrukh lands so it cant be a coincidence. Plus the Sarrukh are known to experiment on creatures in the search for the perfect slave race so it fits their modus operandi.
-34,500 DR: Sarrukh from Okoth are established in Thay by this time and begin eyeing the Greater Riildath forest for expansion. Unable to stand the cold climate of the area and therefore unable to field an army to combat the fey defenders of the forest the Sarrukh begin to drain the Lake of Mists in the Hordelands basin, legends hold they drained the lake into the Underdark using portals.
- Sarrukh also continue their experiments with merging Telthor and humanoid and create the centaur race.
- Sarrukh establish a network of caverns beneath the Greater Riildath, one terminus point located in Narathmault where they abduct fey and Telthor for their experiments (to detract attention from themselves far in the south.
I like the idea of Sarrukh being involved with the spirit realms, but a war with the fey is only ever going to end badly for the fey no matter how many they have. The Sarrukh have slaves, excellent mastery of magic, and they must have already wiped out the fey in their area in the south so a war is not my preference of event. Plus this land is going to be very cold which would keep the reptilian presence low in this area and make it difficult for them to field an army.
However killing fey by draining the whole area which might even change the climate is something they can achieve and draining whole basins they have done in the past (to kill Phaerimm). Plus we can explain the Sarrukh's lack of ability to colonise the area later because the glacier cooled the area even more which drove them out.
-34,000 DR: The fey realms in the West of Faerun are all but extinguished by this time thanks to the encroachment of the creator races in all lands between the Sword Coast and the Inner Seas (Sea of Fallen Stars today). Small pockets remain in isolated areas. Most fey begin migrating across the Inner Seas to the Spirit Realms in the East.
I mostly just added in this reference to explain why the spirit infused lands is no longer present in the west of Faerun, there is no reason the date cannot change as long as it happens before -27,000 DR (i believe the fey bring in the elves to actually try and reclaim the lands in the west).
-32,000 DR: Araushnee, Fenmarel Mestarine and a number of the Seldarine hunt Chupoclops in the wilds of Faerie and into Faerun following his trail as he hops through the thin veil between the worlds to elude his pursuers. Araushnee finally corners Chupoclops and captures the primordial spider.
The Seelie Court banish Chupoclops to the Ethereal Plane to end his threat to the fey peoples of Faerie.
I know Slevas that you had Chupoclops banished to Faerun first but i think that would be obviously unwise of the fey given the close links between Toril and Faerie. Instead have him banished to the ethereal plane because that plane does not touch upon Faerie. It does touch upon Toril but they are not as familiar with Toril and so would not realise their mistake until it is too late (which is always a great point for a story). I do however think banishment is the right course of action for the Seelie Court since even Araushnee was banished and she was demon tainted, Chupoclops is probably just obeying his nature. I think the Seelie Court; being all about life, is probably unable to sentence a creature to death, it would just never occur to them to do so.
-31,000 DR: Tearfall occurs. Ao shifts Abeir and Toril apart to save the planet from destruction in the war between batrachi and primordial. In doing so Ao shifts Faerie further away from Toril, creatures can no longer merely walk between the two planes in places where the veil between the two worlds is thin. From this moment on Portals are required for transport between the two planes.
I chose this to eliminate the thin veil idea of Markus' which explains why it is no longer present in the 3rd edition realms. And also explains why the fey then begin using portals to gate in the elves. Shifting the worlds apart is an event likely to cause the severing of such close links between Toril and Faerie.
-30,000 DR: Araushnee is banished to the Abyss for attacking the Seldarine.
- The Lythar clan of elves exile themselves to Toril through portals set up in the Hordelands basin (the portals were setup to allow continued communication with the Faerun and Faerie court) out of shame of Araushnee their primordial parent.
- Fenmaril Mestarine retreats to Faerun because of the betrayal of Araushnee of the Seldarine.
Please please please let me keep the Lythar and Ilythar clan of wild elves being related to Araushnee and retreating to Faerun out of shame at their heritage, its the idea i like the most. I realise it requires Chupoclops' death later than you would like Sleyvas but it goes some way to explain why one group of wild elves (the dark elves were identical in looks to wild elves) became drow and the others did not and we can still save the lythari by having them be rewarded by Fenmarel Mestarine who changes their nature which saves them from the curse.
Up to this point our ideas are relatively similar, and so i don't think the solution i propose is too radically different from yours.
Afterwards however, you killed Chupoclops much too early in the game for my liking. Personally i would prefer him to take centre stage in the history of the Spirit Realms and be the main reason for their disappearance, plus it means we don't have to bring on many more bit part characters which can detract from the story. After all he is an elder evil along the lines of Dendar and Kezef so he deserves a fair bit of story time.
So what do you think you two, does this first bit work for everyone?
If we quibble on specifics we can make it more vague if you agree on the general idea.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 20:11:29
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Like I said, I'm just trying to toss some stuff at you guys. Run with what you like, ditch everything else. Its pretty-much the way I work in these types of threads.
So now that I know what Chupoclops is, may I present to you Ammut (Ammit), and Egyptian 'elder evil'. Seems every ancient mythos had one of those monster-types. This one, however, was known for eating souls (spirits) on the way to the underworld.
Might I have found Chupoclops? Could they be one and the same?
EDIT: Also, many of these 'primal monsters' are often referred to as demons... might they have been Dæmons instead? Could they be Obyrith?
Nah, I don't see a connection between Chupoclops and Ammut. Ammut is a demoness with the head of a crocodile, rear of a hippo, and body of a lion. Chupoclops is just a really big spider. Sure, both eat souls. I pretty much feel like many of the primordials were consuming spirits (including Magnar the Bear and the cat related being known as Felidae). One of the things I've posited is that Kezef, the Chaos Hound is a magically modified version of the Fenris Wolf. I picture Fenris as also roaming Toril feasting on spirits, but he wasn't gluttonous enough that he started killing beings before their time just to harvest their souls. This was Chupoclops' heresy.... his gluttony attracted the attention of other individuals who first cast him out of the feywild and into Faerun (Fenmarel and Auraushnee), then out of Faerun and into the ethereal (Relkath with the aid of the Seelie Court), and then finally some mortals killed it in the ethereal and it/he became a vestige.
I'd be hesitant to make them demons or devils. If its just a big spider, I'd rather it be some kind of "primordial spider" birthed by the cosmos. When you bring in demons and devils, you're bringing alignment and the outer planes into the picture. That's way more structure than I want to involve here. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 12:56:40
Like I said, I'm just trying to toss some stuff at you guys. Run with what you like, ditch everything else. Its pretty-much the way I work in these types of threads.
So now that I know what Chupoclops is, may I present to you Ammut (Ammit), and Egyptian 'elder evil'. Seems every ancient mythos had one of those monster-types. This one, however, was known for eating souls (spirits) on the way to the underworld.
Might I have found Chupoclops? Could they be one and the same?
EDIT: Also, many of these 'primal monsters' are often referred to as demons... might they have been Dæmons instead? Could they be Obyrith? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 21:37:35
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Once again, had to split a post.
The Shou Interlopers: The ones that appeared in the Taan region and were excepted by the Imaskari (and became part of their empire) were also probably spiritfolk, now that I've been thinking about it. I think calling them 'Shou' is a misnomer, applying the more modern terminology to ancient people. The modern Shou would be a mix of their blood, and that of the aboriginal K-T peoples (Whom I've dubbed the 'Haltai', after the Wu-Haltai of the Northern Wastes of Kara-Tur).
So, to blend this with some of Gray Richarson's musings - some of which wound-up in the GHotR - I now call these tall, red-haired, pale, large slant-eyed (as opposed to oriental eyes, which are NOT really slanted) folk 'the Anoque', and they would have been the ones to have kept the fallen Imaskar empire alive for a time - Anok-Imaskar. Anok-Imaskar was both the last age of Imaskar, and the first age of Shou-Lung (eastern history begins with that age). Its possible that these are the same people as the Maraloi, or not, but they should be related. Apparently there were several branches of half-fey in the east, and not all of them were kindly: I site the Fallen nation of Guge once again. In fact, Guge was ruled by Spiritfolk (BAD spiritfolk), and also that same exact region was used by Imaskari (survivor-state) nobility to inter their dead (more spirits?) That would indicate to me that sort of alliance had formed between the Imaskari and spiritfolk, and when we take into account (my take on) the Anoque, and also Bruce Cordell's intimation that the Imaskari dealt with the fey, it all comes together once again. The eastern portion of the mighty Imaskar Empire was Anoque (later anok), and included the Quoya basin and the Katakoro Mountains (and on into Guge on the other side, which was probably some sort of protectorate/reservation). That entire region is filled with spirit (kami) activity, and in this case, we define 'spirit' to include 'nature spirits', or things linked to the fey in some way.
So, if I had to make a guess, I would say the original Fey territory - where The Fey on Toril may have come from - is somewhere right around that mountain range, and would encompass the entire Taan (Hordelands) region, the Bay of Raum, down into the northern Yehimals (Yakfolk!) and on into the border of Tabot and as far west as Thay and Rashemen. As Toril entered into its post-Sundered age (The Dawn Ages), and the Fey having fled the devastation in The Taan for the Feywild (leaving their 'creations' behind), the last refuge of the surviving fey creatures would have been to travel outward from that region, settling into the Unapproachable east and in Kara-Tur.
I'm not sure if any of that fit YOUR timelines, though. It would mean the Spirit Realms you imagine - the one all over the Unapproachable East - wouldn't have truly come into its glory until after the Sundering, post -31K DR, and would have very little interaction with the Creator Races at that point.
Of course, what you picture is a bit more 'wild' then an actual Fey Empire, so it could be that these creatures (leftovers from fey experimentation perhaps?) did migrate west even earlier, and establish a realm of their own (although not a true 'realm' at all - more like a huge 'Happy Hunting Grounds' kind of region, with hundreds of different tribes).
Markustay, I think I'm seeing you make a logical leap here. You're thinking our intentions for the spirit realms are hinged on the area having links to the feywild. Quite the opposite. The idea is that the spirits of the beings dying in the "unapproachable east" didn't go to the outer planes, but rather stayed and were merging with the land and with animals. This began creating links to the feywild, but at least in my timeline I presented, none of it requires strong links to the fey until -27000 DR roughly. There were probably some fey that were coming over earlier, but just as much some of these spirits were creating "fey" on Toril (i.e. living plants, talking animals, etc...). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 21:04:02
Now onto the Spirit Realms or Fey Realms themselves. I don't picture a unified realm at all, merely nomadic groups of fey that wander the land wherever their hearts take them.
There is no central government or armed forces, the only defence they have is that the land itself contains spirits that can fight against any intruders.
However if we go with a seelie court holding within the endless wastes they would all answer to the judgements of this area (which would happen so rarely as to be almost never) and if they happen to be nearby would certainly drop in like a pilgrimage.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:58:57
I don't know when the Imaskari began but, the first mention I have in GHoTR is -8350 DR which is far too late for the endless wastes to be drained as it would be noted by the elves of Riildath.
So first thing to establish is the arrival point and time of the fey.
Now if Markus is right (which I suspect he is) then arrival point was in many place. Some were in the west of Faerun which sunk beneath the waves thanks to the elven sundering which wiped out the Le Shay empire.
Some were in the east in the endless wastes (which wasn't wasteland at all) and from there they spread outwards.
However it appears that their arrival wasn't necessarily via portal, merely that the walls between the two planes were weak and fey just stepped through (since we know from Ed that the two planes were very close together early in Torils history).
However this closeness is damaged with the first (batrachi) and second (elven) sundering, as the planes were nudged further apart by the two events. So by -31,000 fey could no longer just walk into Toril, they needed portals which are costly to produce and maintain.
Given this closeness and free movement I propose that the endless wastes was actually the place of a secondary court for the seelie court (picture a peripatetic monarchy which moves about and holds sessions in various courts that they nominate).
So up to -31000 DR the endless wastes could be a home away from home for the seelie court themselves. This explains the massive numbers of archfey and other fey creatures wandering around toril particularly in the east.
After -31000 DR, this all ends and the spirit realms are cut off and I propose shortly after that the sarrukh of Oreme drain the endless wastes in their attempt to move into the area (although the date is still floating in the air).
I don't think the Sarrukh made it as far as Narathmault by this point as its still fey dominated, but afterwards who know, maybe they do have some success and manage to migrate that far north.
How does that sound? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:46:45
So what facts do we know more or less for certain about the geography of the unapproachable east.
1 - The endless wastes were drained of water.
2 - The Forest of Lethyr and the Rawlinswood were once one forest called the Riildath (around 10,000 DR)
3 - The Forest of Riildath was carved in two by an errant glacier (presumably from the great glacier region) sometime before -2465 DR.
What other lore have we got from other assumptions
4 - GK has described the Greater Riildath forest that once linked up with forests in Rashemen. This Greater Riildath forest was destroyed by the dragon fire of dragon overlords and the swords, axes and flames of their hobgoblin and human soldiers. So this event has to occur after -30,000 DR abouts, but there is no reason to assume dragon overlords cannot have existed after the elven dracorage ythal was erected as we have plenty of hints of overlord survival well into the modern era so the only limit on the greater riildath date is -10,000 DR.
As for climate it doesn't really matter as far as the fey are concerned since they are magical and mutable beings. It does however matter for the Sarrukh since they are reptilian.
If the whole area was Russia like (which it probably was that far in land) then Sarrukh are not going to be able to penetrate the area very far for colonisation or conquest (which might explain why they drained the lake of mists because they couldn't attack the fey directly).
Any other geographic facts we have before we make any more suppositions about the place. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:35:36
Okay first of several posts addressing various bits separately so its easier to keep track.
Well as it turns out I got the lake wrong, its not lake Ashane, its the lake of mists.
The piece details the following lore
quote:
Legend has it that it once covered most of the Endless Wastes, but some nameless evil in its centre created a permanent gate that drains away most of the lake’s water to this day. For what purpose this may have been done, no one can say. If the legends are true, finding and sealing the gate could flood the whole of the Hordelands, transforming the region from a barren waste into the largest lake on the face of Toril.
Now this is just a legend but it does pinpoint that as Markus said the endless wastes were once fertile (probably not all icy - in the south it might be a different climate), it was probably a vast wetland full of vegetation and swamps and trees etc. An enormous garden.
Now when I first heard about seas being swallowed I had only one candidate in mind. The Sarrukh, they have previous form in the Netherese basin, admittedly this one says it is a gate at the lakes centre, but looking at underdark maps there are a few large seas under Thay so I would imagine the Underdark under the endless wastes might contain a few enormous seas.
The Sarrukh had a presence in Thay so it is entirely conceivable they tried to drain the Endless Wastes to destroy the Spirit Realms based in the area. Just like they did with the Phaerimm.
Anyway just another possibility |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 17:52:25
Once again, had to split a post.
The Shou Interlopers: The ones that appeared in the Taan region and were excepted by the Imaskari (and became part of their empire) were also probably spiritfolk, now that I've been thinking about it. I think calling them 'Shou' is a misnomer, applying the more modern terminology to ancient people. The modern Shou would be a mix of their blood, and that of the aboriginal K-T peoples (Whom I've dubbed the 'Haltai', after the Wu-Haltai of the Northern Wastes of Kara-Tur).
So, to blend this with some of Gray Richarson's musings - some of which wound-up in the GHotR - I now call these tall, red-haired, pale, large slant-eyed (as opposed to oriental eyes, which are NOT really slanted) folk 'the Anoque', and they would have been the ones to have kept the fallen Imaskar empire alive for a time - Anok-Imaskar. Anok-Imaskar was both the last age of Imaskar, and the first age of Shou-Lung (eastern history begins with that age). Its possible that these are the same people as the Maraloi, or not, but they should be related. Apparently there were several branches of half-fey in the east, and not all of them were kindly: I site the Fallen nation of Guge once again. In fact, Guge was ruled by Spiritfolk (BAD spiritfolk), and also that same exact region was used by Imaskari (survivor-state) nobility to inter their dead (more spirits?) That would indicate to me that sort of alliance had formed between the Imaskari and spiritfolk, and when we take into account (my take on) the Anoque, and also Bruce Cordell's intimation that the Imaskari dealt with the fey, it all comes together once again. The eastern portion of the mighty Imaskar Empire was Anoque (later anok), and included the Quoya basin and the Katakoro Mountains (and on into Guge on the other side, which was probably some sort of protectorate/reservation). That entire region is filled with spirit (kami) activity, and in this case, we define 'spirit' to include 'nature spirits', or things linked to the fey in some way.
So, if I had to make a guess, I would say the original Fey territory - where The Fey on Toril may have come from - is somewhere right around that mountain range, and would encompass the entire Taan (Hordelands) region, the Bay of Raum, down into the northern Yehimals (Yakfolk!) and on into the border of Tabot and as far west as Thay and Rashemen. As Toril entered into its post-Sundered age (The Dawn Ages), and the Fey having fled the devastation in The Taan for the Feywild (leaving their 'creations' behind), the last refuge of the surviving fey creatures would have been to travel outward from that region, settling into the Unapproachable east and in Kara-Tur.
I'm not sure if any of that fit YOUR timelines, though. It would mean the Spirit Realms you imagine - the one all over the Unapproachable East - wouldn't have truly come into its glory until after the Sundering, post -31K DR, and would have very little interaction with the Creator Races at that point.
Of course, what you picture is a bit more 'wild' then an actual Fey Empire, so it could be that these creatures (leftovers from fey experimentation perhaps?) did migrate west even earlier, and establish a realm of their own (although not a true 'realm' at all - more like a huge 'Happy Hunting Grounds' kind of region, with hundreds of different tribes). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 17:50:39
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The idea if they fey In the hordelands and then splitting towards faerun and kara tur is good. In ancient times the hordelands may have been the biggest inland sea according to the blurb on lake ashane. So those mountains may have been on an island in that sea. The fey then head their separate ways and when the hordelands are drained other fey move back there.
On seas: there is a lake on the map of The Great Dale from UE - lake Murthil - that appears on no other map (that I know of). Also, when you read through the Desert of Desolation modules, it specifically states that the desert had large bodies of water and rivers flowing through it, before the Pharonic Pantheon invaded and destroyed Imaskar. The map in GHotR is incorrect - it depicts non of those waterways (they just filled-in the desert with grass). Also, the Quoya desert didn't exist then either - the nation of Tsharoon sat on that spot (which was probably a Imaskari survivor state - there were MANY of those).
What that means is that the Taan region wasn't always 'The Endless Wastes' they are now - they were much more hospitable, with a great deal of water. In fact, just like Anauroch, the Raurin desert continued to grow for time after the magical devastation (only the Plains of Purple Dust should have been part of that original blasted area). As for the Quoya Desert - it didn't even exist at the time of Athalantar (about a milenia ago).
Something dried-up all the water and turned the area into a wastelend, and that was probably the invasion by the Pharonic Pantheon. However, I have hypothesized that perhaps the fertile nature of that region was itself artificial - something created in the distant past by the Fey (I had this theory long ago, in the Utter East thread over on the WotC forums). This actually ties in nicely to your 'Spirit realms' concept.
The Maraloi (I picture them as tailed elves, like Huldrafolk) were spirit folk, and had retreated at some point into the Ama basin (the far north of K-T). The had an empire there for a time, until they disappeared entirely. We also have the Maviddi - a strange people that dwelled in what looked to be something like enormous termite mounds (evidence of dark elves/drow in the east?) Both of those peoples are Horde/K-T canon.
As for the Maraloi - isn't it odd that a fey people would want to dwell in such a cold, foreboding place? True, it would have been a great place to hide from others (its one enormous, primal wilderness), but fey don't really like the cold (except for cold Fey, but I am talking about things like sprites, and we have canon that they exist there). What if the fey (half-fey, really - the true fey all left just prior to The Sundering) found a way to warm up the entire area? I have some disjointed evidence of various, mysterious pyramids 'from ancient times' all along the arctic circle of Faerûn - could these have been used to focus magical energies and keep the northern realms warmer?
If so, it would mean that many of the glaciers that sat atop mountain ranges would have melted, and flooded all the lower planes - places like The Taan. What the Imaskari may have discovered was the abandoned paradise the fey spirtfolk created and left behind. So either that magic has worn-out, or the Pharonic (and possibly Orcish) deific invasions shorted-out the magic that was warming up those regions, and the Taan has reverted back to its inhospitable, dry terrain types.
Also, the Mountain of Iron - a highly magnetic mountain just east of the Bay of Raum (Yal Tengri/Great Ice Sea) - is canon. A magnetic mountain of Sold Iron? Sounds like something someone (the Raumathari?) would have created to keep the fey out of an area. I don't know how that could possibly relate to the other stuff I've been mulling-over; it may just be how someone chased the Maraloi out of the Taan and on into the Ama basin (just one of MANY theories one could come up with).
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 13:47:53
Yeah, I like the hordelands being filled with fey as well, just not so "greek" of a type of fey, but more Russian/Slavic (i.e. more apt to have a dark side).
I do believe the date is right for Ulutiu to go slumbering being -2550 instead of it being a typo as posited. The reason why I state this is that Powers and Pantheons states that the last time Ulutiu had an avatar was about four thousand years prior. Noting, this does keep Annam around for a similar amount of time, which MAY be useful..... for instance, if Annam brought the Rus to Toril (whether by accident or design, unknown). Perhaps the seafarers who settled Ruathym from "the west" were from the "islands" of Anchorome (whether Anchorome is islands or a heavily covered in rivers continent is a good question) or from the continent I see called Aurune. Anyway, the reason I bring this up is that I had assumed that the great glacier covered the northern part of the area, but the lore would indicate otherwise.
I did the Sarrukh before the hag kingdom because of dates found in GHotR. Essentially, the Sarrukh rise was near Thay (well, kind of... south of Mulhorand). However, I posit that due to the influence of the primordials/archfey of the Spirit Realms they actually left the Unapproachable East alone.
-35000 DR the Sarrukh establish the realm of Okoth, south of modern-day Mulhorand. Within a hundred years, most of Faerûn is theirs.
Essentially, I wanted the hags around at the same time as the giants of Helligheim, and that came about after the Sarrukh.
The Lurue worshippers amongst the Lythari were the "break away" elves. I could have worded it better I guess. Essentially, the elves that didn't want to bond with feral wolf spirits, and instead chose to bond with things like horses, stags, wise giant owls, griffons, friendly bears, etc... This gives a hook for anything someone might want to do later of some elves that shapechange into other animals besides wolves.
As to the split front, was it a wise decision? Ultimately no. However, it may have been driven by the needs at that time (maybe the hags were considering an alliance with the giants... maybe the goblins were determined to face off against the hags for revenge and the dragons were trying to make the best of a bad situation.... after all the goblins could leave and swear allegiance to the giants, they'd already flipped on the hags). Its main purpose was to drive out the hags and then fuel the conflict between the giants and dragons. Ultimately, Helligheim's ONLY surviving outpost was what becomes Ironfang Keep, and perhaps that was because of this bad move by the dragons.
Yeah, I want to put our stuff side by side and work through them both. I can't right now, because I've got my girlfriend and her daughter coming over and the house is a mess. |
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