| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kalevala |
Posted - 10 Apr 2007 : 16:47:39
Okay,
say the PCs have 20,000 gp to spend, and they want a Cloak of Resistance +2 and a +1 Flaming Longsword...
I once read in a 2nd edition sourcebook that Hillsfar had (past tense) one of the mere handful of magic item stores in the Realms (maybe just 2-3?). Sure, we have the Red Wizard enclaves and various potion/scroll selling temples, but aside from that, to my understanding, there shouldn't really be magic item stores in Faerūn. Right?
So how do you handle magic item shopping in the Realms, be it a small town, small city, or a metropolis like Waterdeep?
Do you have intermediaries searching for the right sellers? Do the PCs make a pre-order from a local wizard? Or are the magic items always conveniently in stock at the local market? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 30 Apr 2007 : 03:06:10
I just posted this same question over at Wizards boards the other day. I honestly could not get much of a straight answer I figured out what that article you listed said.
This question came to me when I recently got a copy of Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue and some of the numbers seemed very wrong. In the end I decided I was just best off using my DM judgment when characters wanted to buy things because a good conversion was not to be found. |
| Kalevala |
Posted - 29 Apr 2007 : 23:48:03
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
Oops had posted this on the wrong thread a bit earlier:
So I was going through some of my old Realms material for ideas. I happened on this from tsr 2106 Forgotten Realms Adventures page 70:
quote:
Equipment Shops are listed as full, partial or poor in quality. A full listing means that all items selling for 500gp or less are readily available in the city (somewhere), and more expensive items (plate mail, chain barding, ships, and trained hunting cats) can be acquired or manufactured for those willing to wait or pay the price. Optionally, the DM may choose to give an expensive item a 10% chance to being readily available and may declare that some items (such as arquebuses) are not available at all.
This seems like a really good idea for shopping. Set your limit maybe its world wide maybe its half of the towns gp limit and above that amount and below the GP limit there is a 10% chance the item they are looking for is there.
Personally, I think I'm going to set my limit at around 10k seems the real problem is only in big metro areas. Things above 10k might be available 10% chance.
A very interesting find, indeed! How does 500 2ed gp translate to 3.5 gp?
All info I have on coin conversion is this article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061011a |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 29 Apr 2007 : 18:15:27
Oops had posted this on the wrong thread a bit earlier:
So I was going through some of my old Realms material for ideas. I happened on this from tsr 2106 Forgotten Realms Adventures page 70:
quote:
Equipment Shops are listed as full, partial or poor in quality. A full listing means that all items selling for 500gp or less are readily available in the city (somewhere), and more expensive items (plate mail, chain barding, ships, and trained hunting cats) can be acquired or manufactured for those willing to wait or pay the price. Optionally, the DM may choose to give an expensive item a 10% chance to being readily available and may declare that some items (such as arquebuses) are not available at all.
This seems like a really good idea for shopping. Set your limit maybe its world wide maybe its half of the towns gp limit and above that amount and below the GP limit there is a 10% chance the item they are looking for is there.
Personally, I think I'm going to set my limit at around 10k seems the real problem is only in big metro areas. Things above 10k might be available 10% chance. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 28 Apr 2007 : 04:32:03
Okay,
Depending on the system I run (I use Spycraft or 3.5-ish rules)
For my Crafty Game, there are limits to "mission gear," which I set up as the "pre payment" option from the PC's employer. There is also a way for the PC's to literally get whatever they want, provided it's within the adventure's caliber (challenge). I think the system is great, but there are some things that make it more difficult to run a realms game within the rules, we'll see how it goes.
For my D&D rules, I follow pretty much what KEJR has already said. I like the shared XP rules, and it makes that commissioned sword that much more important to a player. I do think that the "most powerfully available" should be in the maximum of +2 enhancement/+4 ability modifier range (items less than 16000 gp in a large city or metropolis). Commissions work on relationships & how much they barter the price for.
As to commissioning items: I follow the general DMG rules about how long, except with potions & scrolls. If a PC wants 10 potions of cure light wounds (500gp value), for instance, the character in question can make them in 1 day. It's less than 1000 GP, and the character in question can make them in a day by making it in bulk. There's a bit of an extra fee, but that's okay as far as I'm concerned. Scrolls work similarly, although I make scrolls limited to a maximum of 8 per day. I figure at 1 hour per scroll, a 25gp scroll is okay, but the more difficult spells to master could and should take longer. Basically I say 1 hour minimum, but if the cost of said scroll is 250-499gp then it's a 2-hour scroll, 500-749 gp is a 4 hour scroll, 750-999gp is a 6 hour scroll, and then I follow the rules as written scaled with the above rules (i.e. a 1650gp scroll would take 12 hours, or 1.5 days). To me it's just logical, although it drives other people nutty (I think it simplifies things in a logical manner for myself).
/d
BTW: the 1650gp was an off-the cuff amount, I don't have my DMG handy for an actual 1000gp+ amount. |
| Odysseus |
Posted - 28 Apr 2007 : 03:33:11
quote:
Btw, most of you seem to be (rightfully) stingy when it comes to magic item shopping. Do you still keep your PCs up with the wealth-by-character-level standard by letting them find lots of loot during adventures? Or are you just stingy? 
I've always found that if the characters get money they want to spend it on magic items , if they get magic items they don't care for , they want to trade them for ones they want.
I've done both approches the stingy and the generous. My preference for the realms is generous. My experience says the stingy method does make the players feel attached to the items and value them more. But to make that work they have to feel is if the items are rare. And magic isn't that rare in the realms. With the generous approach I still impose controls on availaibility with gather information checks, and with more powerful items, caster level becomes more important. And I also apply economic problems. If there is only one magic item creator in town, he can only produce so much. And if demand goes up, his prices rise also. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 27 Apr 2007 : 22:58:09
Quite true. I personally have found even with going strictly with official modules, PCs often end up with more stuff that the Wealth by Level table would indicate, but then again, that is the benefit of actually have had played a character as opposed to making one from scratch. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 Apr 2007 : 21:54:57
Well, the wealth by level charts aren't so much about saying that a given character can't have more than that standard, but that if they are average for their challenge rating, they will have that level of wealth. I'm willing to bet that someone like Mirt, for example, has a lot more wealth than his level would indicate. Similarly, Alusair could likely get her hands on quite a bit of equipment that someone her level "shouldn't" have.
Like anything else, its just a rule to express, in abstract terms, something in the game world. If your PCs have more wealth then their level would indicate, they shouldn't get as much experience from a given encounter, and if an NPC has more equipment than their level indicates, then if the PCs end up in conflict with them, they should be worth more xp.
I'd definately not advocate that someone treat the game like a video game and tell someone that they can't use a magic item that has a level "too high" for them, or that they can't pick up more than X amount of wealth.
And just as has been said, if you PCs have things you don't want them too, there are ways to "balance" things . . . that's what thieves' guilds are for! |
| AlorinDawn |
Posted - 27 Apr 2007 : 20:10:44
quote:
Originally posted by Kalevala
quote:
Originally posted by AlorinDawn
What a great thread. Nice to have all you fellow Realmsian DMs to enlighten and enrich each other.
I agree. This proved to be a gold mine  I haven't set up standard procedures for shopping myself yet (been DMing for 6 years), and that's why I asked. So far, I've introduced "agents" with connections to magic item providers. They usually take a 10 % comission of the value, but even then it isn't guaranteed he/she can acquire the wanted item. I'll be sure to adapt some of the wonderful ideas presented in this thread into my game soon enough!
Btw, most of you seem to be (rightfully) stingy when it comes to magic item shopping. Do you still keep your PCs up with the wealth-by-character-level standard by letting them find lots of loot during adventures? Or are you just stingy?
Maybe it's just me, but I don't pay much attention the wealth by level standards. There are plenty of rich low levels and a poor high level characters is not unheard of. Give that 5th level fighter a vorpal weapon one day and see how long he'll keep it if word gets around he has such an item...there's a bundle of fun  |
| Kalevala |
Posted - 27 Apr 2007 : 16:56:40
quote:
Originally posted by AlorinDawn
What a great thread. Nice to have all you fellow Realmsian DMs to enlighten and enrich each other.
I agree. This proved to be a gold mine I haven't set up standard procedures for shopping myself yet (been DMing for 6 years), and that's why I asked. So far, I've introduced "agents" with connections to magic item providers. They usually take a 10 % comission of the value, but even then it isn't guaranteed he/she can acquire the wanted item. I'll be sure to adapt some of the wonderful ideas presented in this thread into my game soon enough!
Btw, most of you seem to be (rightfully) stingy when it comes to magic item shopping. Do you still keep your PCs up with the wealth-by-character-level standard by letting them find lots of loot during adventures? Or are you just stingy? |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 20:16:28
I created a feat a while back for NPCyclopedia: Psionics (available at RPGnow by the way) called Item Transference that allows a caster to get XP donations from willing (not coerced, blackmailed, or forced in any way) donors.
As for shops, I guess I am a bit liberal, but I only allow shopping for items in huge metropolises like Calimport or Waterdeep. Even then, I often roll the bulk of the items randomly and distribute them chaotically. That said, if a PC really wants something, I look for a way to work it in somewhere, be it a shop, dungeon treasure, or another occurrence. |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 17:20:46
quote:
Originally posted by Kalevala
So how do you handle magic item shopping in the Realms, be it a small town, small city, or a metropolis like Waterdeep?
Do you have intermediaries searching for the right sellers? Do the PCs make a pre-order from a local wizard? Or are the magic items always conveniently in stock at the local market?
A gather info check, at the appropriate DC for the town will usually help PC's find what they are looking for, w/in the town/city gp limit. Anything above that be commisioned in a large city or, while I don't have it w/ me right now, more than likely the PC's can find an agent for the Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog (sp)that can get it. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 18 Apr 2007 : 19:06:22
I'm not overly fond of "stores of magic items," but I incorporated magic items made by my now semi-retired PCs in a shop which I located in the former temple of Ao in Waterdeep. It caters to nobles and the obscenely rich, and it thus has such things as rugs which have extradimensional spaces under them so that you can literally "sweep something under the rug," armor which decorates itself in different colors on command, burned-out Ioun stones (how many thieves in dark alleys will be able to tell whether that thing whirling around your head is active or not, eh?). My favorite item, however, is an iron fire poker in an extravagant, hardwood, velvet-lined display case, priced at 1,500 dragons if I recall correctly. The gimmick? It is a +1 ghost touch fire poker, for use in drawing rooms which have unwanted incorporeal visitors (i.e., ghosts)! Just the thing for the noble who not only has things swept under the rug, but who may also have a few skeletons in the closet ... or wall.
|
| AlorinDawn |
Posted - 17 Apr 2007 : 22:55:17
What a great thread. Nice to have all you fellow Realmsian DMs to enlighten and enrich each other. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 20:29:02
Hm . . . Somehow I knew you would post something to that effect Wooly . . . |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 17:13:38
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus
Letting other people provide the xp, makes more sense. It also allows for the possibility of some plotlines, BBEG draining peoples souls to power their evil magic items etc.
There was a spell in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical that allowed a not so nice item crafter to syphon off another's constitution to pay the constitution cost of a magic item's creation in 2nd edition. I've been throwing around the idea that you could, fairly easily, convert this spell to 3.5 by making each point of constitition drained equal to a given amount of XP for the purposes of magic item creation.
And Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (formerly a suppressed work ) is available for free from the Wizards downloads page.  |
| Kuje |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 16:57:37
quote:
Originally posted by Sian
well ... i've been playing with the houserule that if another person was together with the mage (or other kind of caster for the sake) doing the making of the item, they can vouch for sharing the XP loss ... as in that a Mage and a warrior make an item for the warrior that costs 50 xp ... then they could share the xp cost so each 'pays' 25 xp instead
This kinda makes sense to me because a lot of the people that crafted items in 2e were partners. One to enchant the item and the other to craft the item. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 16:47:20
quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus
Letting other people provide the xp, makes more sense. It also allows for the possibility of some plotlines, BBEG draining peoples souls to power their evil magic items etc.
There was a spell in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical that allowed a not so nice item crafter to syphon off another's constitution to pay the constitution cost of a magic item's creation in 2nd edition. I've been throwing around the idea that you could, fairly easily, convert this spell to 3.5 by making each point of constitition drained equal to a given amount of XP for the purposes of magic item creation.
|
| Sian |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 16:13:29
well ... i've been playing with the houserule that if another person was together with the mage (or other kind of caster for the sake) doing the making of the item, they can vouch for sharing the XP loss ... as in that a Mage and a warrior make an item for the warrior that costs 50 xp ... then they could share the xp cost so each 'pays' 25 xp instead |
| Odysseus |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 16:02:43
The link to the article from the PHB II pretty much says it all.
The concept that the items creater has to pay for the xp cost is just a game rule , and doesn't hold up to much rational. No one can create items without constant gaining of experince. Which severly limits the number of items being made.
Letting other people provide the xp, makes more sense. It also allows for the possibility of some plotlines, BBEG draining peoples souls to power their evil magic items etc. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 22:50:08
Check out this link on the WOTC site:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a |
| Kalevala |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 22:47:46
I'm seeing so many good ideas here that my head is starting to spin
I'm curious, though: A couple of you mentioned the "you provide the XP" approach. I checked the PHB, DMG, and FAQ but couldn't find any rules supporting the possibilty - just that someone else can provide the spell. So I'm guessing it's a house rule, or did I miss something? It sounds like a very interesting idea. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 21:25:40
Magic Items available for purchase varies in my campaign.
One of the players almost always plays a rogue and is willing to be part of a guild, so ends up being the one that "dumps" and "acquires" items for the party. I make almost any item within reason available, based on a Gather Information and Diplomacy check.
The only items that are "common" for purchase is Potions of Healing and Wands of Healing (which I allow anyone to use) because no one in my group (except myself) will play a Divine caster. And even then only a few actually go looking for healing items.
Overall the group doesn't make any outrageous requests for magic items, and most of the stuff they do want are things that are Quality of Life items or relatively "minor" items (usually no more than maybe 5,000gp in value). |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 21:16:31
I'm a beast when it comes to this stuff. The minor scrolls, potions and assorted "cheap" trinkets are available if you know who makes them and are in (relative) good standing with them. You have to look long and hard to find a sword +1 though and if you do find someone willing to sell it then you'd best be prepared to pay (or create a situation where they need cash quick)
Otherwise it's off to find a mage who would craft something for you.
Then it's time to convince him/her to do this for you.
Then you've got to go out and procure the items the mage needs to create the item (they don't keep these things lying around *g*)
Then you need to wait and hope I don't do something nasty :)
If the PCs take Item creation feats, then they can skip the "find a mage, convince a mage" but I'm still a stickler when it comes to the components. :) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 17:15:07
I look at things like this. Player's get magic items, and they sell them off at half price because it doesn't fit their build or the items aren't powerful enough. Also, I'm not such a stickler that everyone puts there bonuses in the same spot (i.e. a periapt of wisdom makes just as much since as a helm of wisdom, and a cloak of charisma makes as much sense as a necklace of charisma), so I provide the standard most of the time, but if they want an alternate slot that makes sense I give them a percentage chance that its there. As a result, in any area where there's an enclave, I put forth that the following items are always available in the following percentages +1 80%, +2 40%, +3 10%, +4 or better, order it.
X of resistance +1 or +2 (this being cloak, vest, bracers, ring, etc...)
X of protection/deflection bonus +1 or +2 (again cloak, vest, bracers, ring, etc...)
X of natural armor +1 or +2 (again amulet, cloak, vest, bracers, ring, etc...)
X of +2 to an ability score available
+1 weapon available
+1 weapon with some added elemental dmg available with a few days notice
+1 or +2 armor or shield of the common types (chain shirt, studded leather, breastplate or full plate... or light steel shield or heavy steel shield) available
wands, scrolls, and potions of any 1st lvl spells are common. 2nd lvl becomes a percentage roll. Beyond that order it.
Beyond that, they tend to have to arrange to order the item.
|
| Odysseus |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 14:17:10
My considerations for MI avavilibilty are the wealth cap of the location. And the Caster level needed for the item.
If the person selling the item is just a retailer, then the gp cap limits the item he has, plus all his inventory won't be tied up in expensive items. If the cap is 5000. He may have one 5000 item, a couple of 2500, 4 1250s etc.
If the person selling is a manufacturer. Then the caster level limit comes in to play more. and I'm a "you provide the xp" kind of DM . So its weather you can find someone of suitable caster level to create your item. Higher level manufacturers are harder to find, and may have full order sheets. |
| Thangorn |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 14:16:51
Good questions:
I dont have any stores that sell purely permanent magical items and very, very few that sell any at all. Any "magic shop" in my campaign would rather be a selection of curios, strange unguents, bottled monster parts, strange tools, etc with very few of the items being directly enchanted items. Potions, scrolls and other consumables, I use my judgement on availability of components and enchanters and I do some rolls + have players do some rolls against information gathering/persuade to see whether characters will find what they are looking for. Even then, some stuff is just not going to be available in smaller towns. Bigger towns, the search could take longer and lead down a lot of false alleys to alot of charlatans "curiousity shops" I also make sure that the people who might sell magic will need convincing that the pc is not just going to use the magic for ill purposes like blowing up the city or charming the city guard.
Many permanent magical items that I might allow to be available, I have as low level oddities that might be of interest to a merchant, nobleman or noblewoman (eg. a chamberpot that empties itself, a mirror that appears to increase a persons looks by 2 charisma points while gazing into it, but really its a temporary illusion within the mirror's surface only, etc.) with the occassional useful magical item (eg. ring of featherfalling). All dangerous magic items I generally classify as under the counter items requiring the PCs to gain a merchants trust to purchase anything.
If the PCs want to buy more powerful stuff, it will cost them not only money but they will need to pick up a few components needed for the magical item themselves. This allows me to send them out on yet another quest, to get in more trouble and means I get to sink ALOT more of their accumulated wealth in the exercise. Its a win/win.
I try and keep magic items (yes even consumables) rare and mysterious. There is no such thing as just a +1 enhanced sword in my campaign, its an elven-forged sword specially made for an officer of the Evereskan Vale Guard. Even Masterwork items in my campaign bear maker's marks and symbology kinda like antiques. Not even every healing potion looks alike or is the same price temple to temple to herbalist. In my campaigns, magic items are not just made in a factory. It still takes a master craftsman's amount of care and attention to detail to make even one, let alone a whole shop.
|
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 08:11:56
The Magic Item Compendium advises DMs that "Large one-stop shop 'magic emporiums' are unrealistic and rare even in metropolitan-sized cities." It goes on to state that a community's stock of magical gear for sale ought to be spread widely amongst the residences of retired adventurers, herbalists shops, bookstores, alchemist shops, wizard's towers, etc...
The tome goes on to suggest DMs have players spend time in game searching around (assuming they are in a town whose GP limit can support the cost of what the PCs are seeking), then make Gather Information Checks against a DC equal to 15+1/2 the item's caster level. A failed roll can be re-rolled, but only if time (that is, the DM's plot) permits.
I think this could work just as easily in a Realms game.
::::::::::::::::::::::
As for my campaign I allow my players to use their contacts in two major cities (Waterdeep, the Order of Magists and Protectors; and Suzail, the War Wizards and various merchant costers in that city) for the selling of and occasional buying of magic items.
My players have commissioned various items to be made by the Order of Magists, and have worked with them to recover items and raw/rare materials in exchange for a small discount on the purchase and sale of magic items from the Order.
For scrolls I roll a % chance that one is available. I don't automatically make any spell available. This is also true for some magic items, no matter how much GP or time the PCs want to throw into the acquisition/finding of such for sale.
This reminds me of the time they were forced to teleport from Suzail to Waterdeep to Silverymoon just to find the right set of scrolls they anticipated needing for an adventure. Along the way they offended Elaith Craulnober and managed to get arrested at teh gates to Silverymoon.
Which is as it should be. ;)
J. Grenemyer |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 10 Apr 2007 : 22:22:59
Ahh yes I remember this little shop and his two large golems..
I hope Mystra takes care of his soul
He died in the arena as I remember
A battle with a red wizard
.
Ahh.. on thing I just want to point out, is that if you are going to make it easy to buy magic items its not a special experience to find one.
So my advice is, let the players find their own items, ore let them create them.
Give them 20,000gp worth of materials fore creating items.
|
| Daviot |
Posted - 10 Apr 2007 : 22:17:32
Kalevala, to coincide with the above, in my campaign, minor magical items, potions, wands, scrolls, and other fairly cheap (<2000 gp) expendable items are fairly available, at temples or the local hedge-wizard, though stocks and supplies vary greatly. As for larger, permanent items (of the magic arms and armor sort that adventurers like to use), there are three major sources (besides picking up such things as loot and plunder) available for my characters. First, commission a mage to craft the item for you. Second, the black market, which is more available in some areas than others. Third, there are small, unadvertised "specialty" shops in larger cities, where more valuable items are for legal or quasi-legal sale. These may be independent or the unlabeled back rooms to other stores; typically, one either has to have connections to the shop, via a mage guild, or a friend-of-a-friend. (I believe the 3.0 book Magic of Faerūn has a section on the magic item trade.) But as KEJR mentioned, there aren't any Magic-Sword-Mega-Marts in the Realms. ~_^
Don't forget that there at least three major powers involved in the magic item trade: The Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, and Halruaa. Just note that all three are loathe to give or sell their better items to outsiders. And if all else fails, have a magely PC take an item creation feat and take the downtime to create the items that party needs or wants. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 10 Apr 2007 : 22:07:19
Remember the Thay Marts are price capped at 2000gp they simply dont sell items that cost more than that amount |
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