| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 21:29:54
D&D Virtual Table Top going to Beta
It's a closed, invite-only Beta test, but they are saying they may opening the test up to DDI subscribers later on. The biggest difference I'm seeing right now (although it may be added back in later) is the removal of the "Character Mini" and 3-D views. It looks a lot more like other 2D table-tops out there. Still, it is a step away from the Vaporware it was becoming. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 21:52:19
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Markustay
Oh, and don't say 'D&D' on Facebook (no-one will click on it) - say something like 'Free adult fantasy game' - guaranteed you'll get more kids to click on the ad that way. 
I disagree with this advice; if you mean D&D then say D&D. There is no shame in being a D&D nerd. (Nerds are rich, powerful, cool, and get the hottest women these days anyhow.) ... lol, not so long ago googling "fantasy role playing games" would offer results that were most definitely unrelated to D&D ...
I think Markus was highlighting the ADULT part to get their attention.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 07:27:22
quote:
Markustay
Oh, and don't say 'D&D' on Facebook (no-one will click on it) - say something like 'Free adult fantasy game' - guaranteed you'll get more kids to click on the ad that way.
I disagree with this advice; if you mean D&D then say D&D. There is no shame in being a D&D nerd. (Nerds are rich, powerful, cool, and get the hottest women these days anyhow.) ... lol, not so long ago googling "fantasy role playing games" would offer results that were most definitely unrelated to D&D ... |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 06:04:23
Allentown area. Sorry man.
Drove through there today, though... Apparently you have a baseball team? I didn't know they were still playing...  (That was a joke, btw.) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 04:35:10
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I wanted to apologize for a lack of updates on the free trial. I got the official job offer last week and have been running around (almost) non-stop setting up the move, packing for the move back to PA, going through the last week of work, getting ready to start my new job on January 3rd and basically just walking around like I've been kissed by THO for the last week and a half.
Once things settle down a bit, I promise to beat the Virtual Table with a large stick and report on what candy spills out.
You wouldn't happen to be moving to the Pittsburgh area would you?  |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 03:53:12
I wanted to apologize for a lack of updates on the free trial. I got the official job offer last week and have been running around (almost) non-stop setting up the move, packing for the move back to PA, going through the last week of work, getting ready to start my new job on January 3rd and basically just walking around like I've been kissed by THO for the last week and a half.
Once things settle down a bit, I promise to beat the Virtual Table with a large stick and report on what candy spills out. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 01:28:31
But Matt, you do understand what I am saying, right?
Making existing customers happy isn't a very lucrative business-model. Sure, word-of-mouth and all of that, but what you need is some good, ol' fashioned 'snake oil'. Wow EVERYONE with the 'kewl shiney', but then only make the built-in game engine functional for folks running a D&D game.
Minimum functionality for alternate rules is a MUST in order to get non-D&D gamers to try it. Eventually they will want to 'push the big, red button', and they will pay.
How was Paizo able to steal such a large market-share of this niche genre? Because they offered a product that people already tried and liked. You can't steal market-share if no-one tries your product. It could be the greatest thing since OD&D was created, but if people don't give it a try (and a LOT of anti-4e people won't), then its a lame duck.
I play a LOT of Facebook games - study their (Zynga) business model. the games are FREE... but if you want the 'kewl stuff' you got to buy it with REAL money. This business-model was accidentally created/discovered during the reign of Diablo2 - players were selling in-game items for REAL MONEY on E-Bay!
I know... my son made me buy him some armor.... 
Savy people realized that stupid humans were willing to pay for pixels on their screen with REAL, hard-earned cash. ALL the FB games do it now - you can buy 'Facebook dollars', and buy all sorts of neat things to use in your games.
D&D needs to do something similar (and GODS NO, don't open a 'magic shop' and start selling the min-maxers quantity-discount Staves of the Magi) - you need to have a very simple, basic RPG platform that will scale to most systems, and then provide MUCH greater functionality if the DDi is paid for and the D&D rules applied. You have to get them to try it, otherwise its destined to fail from the launch (no matter how great it is).
On a slightly different note:
A 30-day FREE trial might work, 60 would be better - once someone is that involved with their character, they will loathe parting with them - Disney games like Toontown and Wizards101 use this model... and YES, I have played both of those as well (and they were highly addictive).
While it is true that maybe only 1-in-10 people will continue their game subscription after you start charging them, it is still better to get 1,000,000 people to try it then 10,000 (because the million might give you a permanent group of 100,000 that stick around).
WotC needs to give people the incentive to try their products, and having a good product doesn't necessarily mean that will happen. Put and add on FB with the word 'free game' on it, and see how many hits you generate - its all about marketing. I used to play a wargame called Evony (also free), and almost everyone I knew who played clicked on the picture of the 'hot chick' that said 'Adult Game'... which had absolutely NOTHING to do with Evony.
yet we stayed... and played...
And they also sold you 'Evony money' to buy in-game items.
Oh, and don't say 'D&D' on Facebook (no-one will click on it) - say something like 'Free adult fantasy game' - guaranteed you'll get more kids to click on the ad that way.
Don't worry about 'truth in advertising' - that doesn't sell games (or anything else for that matter). You need to hook the fish you haven't even thought of yet, and there are a LOT of lonely people spending their money on silly Facebook games. Build it and they will come. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 14:04:22
Everyone is missing the biggest part of the pie. WotC controls the IP and thus we will likely see full-integration of their product. Unlike OpenRPG and others, you will not have to go in and create your own variables and controls to best match the system. The system (4e) will already be integrated. This is where they are going to rocket above all others. I'm waiting on my beta invite, but from the videos I have seen and the people I've talked to, this thing should be awesome.
And look, I prefer Pen & Paper whenever possible. That being said, I love that I will have the chance to play D&D with my older brother and his kids-- who reside clear across the country in Seattle! For this reason alone, this product is awesome. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 12:52:21
Forget marketing. Buy enough shares to become a menace on the board of directors, lol. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 12:10:48
Very well said Markus. You should be working for Hasbro/Wizards in the marketing department  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 00:41:58
They NEED to make it appeal to a wider audience - I just hope they realize this. Building a product - no matter how wonderful - that only appeals to your existing customers is counter-productive.
They needn't give-away the whole pie - just enough to wet the appetites of those people playing 'other systems'. Its like drug-dealing - if you want them to buy your product, you have to give away some 'free samples' first (get 'em hooked, and real 'em in)
They also need to put a little 'glitz' into the finished product - older people will take quality over eye-candy, but its that 'eye-candy' that going to get the younger people to look at it in the first place.
I can't wait to see how far they go with this - it has TONS of potential. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 00:07:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, the fact that they have it built-in to choose your edition-of-preference (despite it being currently non-functional) shows me someone over there is REALLY thinking on their feet, and is an immensely wonderful sign.
Well, I'm not sure if what the plans are for integrating other rules. The "choice" is made when you create the Campaign listing outside of the VT. Kinda like when you're creating a "room" in a online game listing interests for finding players. I'm hopeful that they'd integrate old rules into the VT, but right now the "character sheet" in the game only has listings for stats/skills/powers/etc. for 4E characters. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 23:58:44
More like what happens in a porn-movie when folks start-out in the kitchen.
Anyhow, the fact that they have it built-in to choose your edition-of-preference (despite it being currently non-functional) shows me someone over there is REALLY thinking on their feet, and is an immensely wonderful sign.
You make the thing work for all rules, but only show its TRUE STRENGTH when used with the 4e rules. Folks of all shapes and sizes use it... and yearn for that extra power (these are gamers, after-all).
Kudos for business-savvy - a point goes to wotC.
This is what I meant by 'think universal-remote'. You can buy any one, and it will work your TV - at least turn it off and on, and adjust the volume. On them are plenty of other 'kewl buttons' to press, but those will only work with the brand TV that the remote is made by. So if you want to adjust the brightness and contrast (and thereby improve your enjoyment of said product), you need to use the one it was made for.
Get it?
Show them the 'shiney buttons'... but then make them "say the magic word" to get at them (and in this case, the magic-word is Mastercard or Visa).
For this to work (not just the program - the entire plan) it MUST reach a different target-audience then the one they already have, which are the folks playing 4e. You have no idea how thrilled I am to see them moving in the right direction with this. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 23:05:29
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
virtual tabletob sounds like internet porn to me
A lot of fun and an easy way to lose several hours? Or the Da Vinci's Notebook song? |
| Kno |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 22:40:33
virtual tabletob sounds like internet porn to me |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 11:47:34
Keep us updated Ashe. From the reviews I saw, it looks good. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 04:14:55
As Artie Johnson used to say, "Vewy Interestink..."
Got my Beta pass to try out the VT today. Played around a bit, and they do have it set up that you can choose what rules set you use for your campaign (4th, 3.5, 3rd, 2nd and 1st), but it doesn't actually use those rules when you open the table. It only uses 4E rules. So far, it runs pretty cleanly, using Java (had to open it with IE though, Firefox kept getting errors). Seems to run a little smoother than OpenRPG (although, last time I opened OpenRPG was 6+ months ago), but I don't see anything yet that would make me want to pay for it.
More as I go deeper into my testing. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 22:26:32
I've tried out Gametable, OpenRPG, Virtual Tabletop, and a few freebies (all found at Battlegounds). Just to get a "feel" for what sorts of tools are out there, not really to comprehensively compare their merits.
I personally prefer the Pen&Paper table style of gaming, it's just more "natural" and interactive for myself and the other grognards in my group. The software can provide quickly referenced amazing databases of lore, though only with immense data entry; I'd personally rather build my own database from a more flexible engine (though many people don't know how to do this, so "TV dinner" databases would suit them well enough). I wouldn't use VTs to resolve combat because they generally have a more restrictive menu of options and results than "table" gaming - but they can be an invaluable tool to test/simulate how your party might fare against BBEG encounters, helpful for tweaking just the right "balance" without risking TPK (or DM TPK-prevention cheating) or feeble pushovers.
Just my opinions. I'm sure that gamers approaching VTs from the MMORPGs would have much the opposite opinion. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 06:57:23
I see this VT project as being a hopeful sign. Even if it bombs Wizbro can still recycle the lore, that is, publish it with minimal design time/cost. At least it shows some willingness to experiment and diversify; I think that (provided quality of content is high, the interface is acceptable, and it's not skewered by bugs) it will appeal to a much broader audience than the current DDi sorts (maybe pull some as-yet-untapped WoW/MMORPG players onboard), maybe give D&D a good shot in the arm. Linked HTML and glitzy demo installs travel even faster than word of mouth. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 21:38:07
This may be a case of "too little, too late". 
There is actually a way to pull this off - I'm not going to go into marketing-theory again. What they need to do is convince EVERYONE that this is THE product to use, and there are a few ways of doing that (which will not only put their finger in the proverbial dike, but also give incentive to non-D&D gamers to jump-ship, or 'come-back into the fold'). I unfortunately do not see the business-savvy (nor budget) to do what is needed.
They have to think 'Universal Remote Control', and that's all I'm going to say about that.
quote:
Originally posted by heruca
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can't even recall their name beyond that I 'think' it began with an 'L'). They were the very first company out-the-door with a Home computer. (in 1979! I know... I had one). You would think they were ideally poised to take over the world in the fledgling home-computer market.
You mean Altair?
Actually, I was thinking about the store, which I now remember was called 'Lafayette'. Doing a quick web search I found that they are still in-business, although most of them closed in my area in the early 80's.
The point is to go multi-platform (in this case multi-rules), but make it so that the program has far greater functionality for your own ruleset.
In other words, make them yearn for it. As it stands, the only folks that will be trying it will be the folks who have the DDi, which is a demographic they already own! Its pointless from a business-perspective - they need to do something with it to get people who are not already customers to try the damn thing. Right now, as it stands, this product only has potential to turn existing customers off, and zero potential to attract new customers.
The target was missed completely - to be effective, this NEEDED to be released when 4e was released. Handing out oxygen masks the day after the poison gas is released doesn't help 'the victims'... its too late. The best thing to do is hand those masks out to people who weren't affected. This is going to be available to the completely wrong group of people.
And to make myself perfectly clear, I want this to succeed - I am starting two different Essentials groups in two different states, over 900 miles apart! If I can get everyone in on the same game, that would be quite a coup for me.
I complain because I care. If I didn't give a crap about FR and D&D I'd be long gone from here already. |
| heruca |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 18:12:34
Other VTs have been around for at least a decade, and WotC announced their original 3D VT about 4 years ago.
I think GRiP, WebRPG, OpenRPG, and KloogeWerks were among the first VTs, or at least the first to gain significant popularity. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 15:37:28
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
I'm mildly surprised that they went back and restarted work on a VTT given the experience they had the first time around with Gleemax and the DOA first VTT and tens of millions down the drain.
The new one from the screenshots looks to have been done from scratch and very much scaled back from the original one which would have had 3d miniatures, etc. It's a more realistic product, but I have to wonder if the commercial viability hasn't already vanished because since the first VTT crashed and burned there are multiple VTTs out there, some of them free, and some of them as good or arguably better looking than the preview from WotC. Plus the potentially small pool of interest at this stage of 4e's lifecycle. Only if they integrate it with the other tools will it really have much chance of competition with the other VTTs out there in a very crowded, perhaps limited, marketplace.
It being released in the middle of the blowback from the release of the online CB too isn't giving it a perfect reception, and from what I've seen online a lot of skepticism. This will be interesting to see develop.
As I understand it, there have been other virtual tabletops out there for a few years -- there were even ones already in existence when WotC initially announced they were going to do one.
I think that those other VTs suffer from a lack of prominence, though. WotC, as the big kid in the gaming industry, has the prominence to make one successful. As long as WotC puts its name on a VT, that VT will get a lot more attention than any others.
I do agree that it's a little odd that after years of silence on the topic, WotC suddenly pops up and says its coming. I'd assumed that this was going to forever remain vaporware. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 07:38:05
Yeah, it seems to be an idea past its prime. The appeal of the Wizbro offering would be continuous lore updates as part of the subscription price, I imagine. Even that can only slow piracy rather than prevent it; but I think a lot of dedicated fans would pay the premium to have that advantage (and buy into the eternal "call-the-mothership" trap if Wizbro wants to be paranoid about it). My big questions have been asked in this thread before: would the VT be able to support previous rules editions or force us to buy whatever Wizbro thinks is latest/greatest? Would it offer any user-configuration or plugin support to add customized (homebrew and 3rd-party) content? |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 07:16:19
I'm mildly surprised that they went back and restarted work on a VTT given the experience they had the first time around with Gleemax and the DOA first VTT and tens of millions down the drain.
The new one from the screenshots looks to have been done from scratch and very much scaled back from the original one which would have had 3d miniatures, etc. It's a more realistic product, but I have to wonder if the commercial viability hasn't already vanished because since the first VTT crashed and burned there are multiple VTTs out there, some of them free, and some of them as good or arguably better looking than the preview from WotC. Plus the potentially small pool of interest at this stage of 4e's lifecycle. Only if they integrate it with the other tools will it really have much chance of competition with the other VTTs out there in a very crowded, perhaps limited, marketplace.
It being released in the middle of the blowback from the release of the online CB too isn't giving it a perfect reception, and from what I've seen online a lot of skepticism. This will be interesting to see develop. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 20:00:38
Ah, the Z80 days. Good times. I can't say I agree entirely with all the details and examples you present, Markus (though Radio Shack sucks for parts-shopping these days), but I know what you're saying. I also see that the way you see these particular examples is a valid analysis from your particular perspective of a larger picture that nobody (including you or I) will ever fully understand or agree upon.
Computing - hardware and software - has always been more about compatibility than standards. Popular products (like SoundBlaster, Pentium, Windows, PKWare/WinZip) become de-facto standards against which competing and often superior products (Ultrasound, AMD, linux, WinRAR) are measured and driven. People often villainize the corporate greed which engineers proprietary technologies (iPhones, Blu-Ray) without weighing the positive aspects these toys provide. Everybody (you and I included) has a thousand opinions on these subjects.
Insofar as VT software goes, easy intercompatibility across all common platforms is definitely a huge advantage that will appeal to a wider market. Some degree of proprietary (semi-non-compatibility, ie: unique format) assures that piracy won't kill the product prematurely. As much as we all love D&D, we must reluctantly acknowledge that it's not a charity and pay the price of sustaining it. I'd hate to see this "risky" VT project/venture get blasted into a ghostly undead existence by the same heavy-handed knee-jerk blunderbuss thundershot that killed the pdfs; I'd rather have a living, thriving, growing product. It's not an impossible model, MMORPGs have done something of the sort for years. |
| heruca |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 19:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can't even recall their name beyond that I 'think' it began with an 'L'). They were the very first company out-the-door with a Home computer. (in 1979! I know... I had one). You would think they were ideally poised to take over the world in the fledgling home-computer market.
You mean Altair? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 18:42:59
A first reading I thought Wolly's point was silly (sorry  ), but on further consideration I offer you the 'Radio Shack' model as an example.
In the 1970's, Radio Shack was THE premiere electronics store - they were practically untouchable (there was one other chain, IIRC, but I can't even recall their name beyond that I 'think' it began with an 'L'). They were the very first company out-the-door with a Home computer. (in 1979! I know... I had one). You would think they were ideally poised to take over the world in the fledgling home-computer market.
But they didn't - the people making the decisions decided that going 'propriety', and manufacturing parts that only worked with their machines (rather then produce boards that fit the more generic 'IBM compatible' model) was the way to go. Although the parts were technically spec'd the same, they purposely made their cases and boards under-sized so competing parts wouldn't fit.
And they, and their computer business, tanked. They now peddle cheesy electronic toys like clapping monkeys and shooting robots around the Holidays, but are otherwise practically 'out-of-business' (and they also failed to jump on the cellphone market until WAY too late).
Propriety killed them, and nearly killed Apple Computers (did you know it was Bill Gates who saved Apple? True fact - he gave them millions to float them, so as to avoid being a 'monopoly').
So in that light, I can see Wooly's point (and since I believe he works with computers, he may have had these same thoughts). On the other hand, Microsoft, which went with 'one size fits all' generic software (which never ran nearly as good as Apple's, but that didn't matter) wound up ruling the roost (they have their own problems now, due to brain-drain and something called 'maximum saturation', but that's beside the point).
@ Erik and Matt - I only hope you are right, and I do not blame them for the crippling* delay of the software - I am well-aware of the tragic events that they could not have predicted, which while sad for the people involved, was devastating to their release-date plans. Had the virtual table-top been ready at 4e's release, and fully integrated with a virtual dungeon, I think it would have been PURE win.
Amazing how much effect one life can have on so many people - one of those 'butterfly effect' moments. 
Anyhow, if they can get this done, they may still have a winner on their hands. The Grognard in me really detests that people won't need to get together in-person anymore (sell your Doritos stock!), but I realize the times, they are a'changin'.
*Crippling, as in I think it had exactly that affect on 4e's release. |
| heruca |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 17:50:06
Gametable is supposedly the easiest (and most basic) of the free VTTs, so you might want to start there. Follow the link in my previous post to find the download link for Gametable. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 17:01:26
I've never really heard of VTs prior to this scroll. I'd like to try one or two (freebies) out to judge the merits of this approach. Any comments or recommendations? |
| heruca |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 14:59:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The difference, I think, is that most people haven't even heard of these... WotC announced their VT and people were discussing it before I knew there were any other ones out there... WotC, with its prominence, could offer the exact same thing as any of those others, and have it be more successful simply because WotC's name would make more people aware of it.
If WotC does this right, and markets it right, it has some serious potential.
Oh, I completely agree. WotC's VT offering could offer just a bare minimum of functionality, but as long as it's got that official WotC/D&D logo and they put their marketing department on it, their VT will immediately snatch up a larger portion of the VT market than all other 60 or so VTs combined. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 14:05:14
quote:
Originally posted by heruca
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally feel that they'd be better off not tying the VT too closely to D&D... Sure, make it work great for 4E, by all means. But if they make it where it can easily be used for other gaming systems, then it would be a true killer app -- because then they can get money from all gamers, not just the ones playing 4E.
There are already a number of virtual tabletop programs that are RPG-system-agnostic (some are even free). One is even flexible enough to handle not just RPGs, but also boardgames, wargames, card games, and dice games. Yes, for a gamer, that should be a "killer app".
The difference, I think, is that most people haven't even heard of these... WotC announced their VT and people were discussing it before I knew there were any other ones out there... WotC, with its prominence, could offer the exact same thing as any of those others, and have it be more successful simply because WotC's name would make more people aware of it.
If WotC does this right, and markets it right, it has some serious potential. |
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