| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 00:53:12
Check it out!
Fans of the Harpers will be especially interested.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Pandora |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 23:19:22
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Reading a PDF in depth makes my eyes hurt. Though I have bought several 2nd Edition PDF's from Paizo, mainly as reference materials. Besides, my FLGS has one in stock.
Press the print button... oh and make sure you have paper loaded into your machine.  before you know it, boom.. printed copy .
I agree, trying to get comfortable on the couch to read a good book via a computer screen is just not the same experience as an original copy
... and not everyone has the luxury of a duplex capable color laser printer that I have. I would still buy a book if it was available over printing it myself simply because its much better quality. Printing stuff on one page only makes you carry a ton instead of only half a ton - just in case youre not playing at your own home and need the reference material. This is one of the main reasons which seriously annoy me in 4e ... its total reliance on PDF and online (after the first few books) will just make it annoying to read. If they adopted a "wait and see" attitude and publish books and PDF and then see what the customers like more it would at least make sense, but they already decided to go for PDF. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 19:35:06
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The idea of refounding Phalorm was interesting as well, though even in the pre-Spellplauge Realms I don't think there was much pining for the halcyon days of Phalorm, so much as just knowing that it used to be around and isn't anymore.
Heh, true. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 17:01:42
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, and in fact that's even suggested by the text--a Mythic Sovereign can arise in Damara or Impiltur, among other places.
Its funny, because I skim things in weird order before I sit down and read it, and then went "d'oh."
The idea of refounding Phalorm was interesting as well, though even in the pre-Spellplauge Realms I don't think there was much pining for the halcyon days of Phalorm, so much as just knowing that it used to be around and isn't anymore.
But I would much rather use this angle to refound Impilur or Damara than to try and unseat the Obarskyrs or another nation that actually acheived a measure of stability or continuity over the last century.
Still . . . maybe fulfilling the dreams of that lofty organization known as the Rot Grubbs and providing a true king for Sembia . . . |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 16:57:40
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
He never said that fans of the Harpers would rejoice and sing songs.
Althought a lot of those Harper guys themselves might be doing some singing . . .  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:49:56
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Four bucks! That's, like, fifty pence or something right now, ain't it?
That just brings to mind the whole argument over the value of actual books over PDFs...
I just want to mention that you can get the old Grey Box in "book form" if you shop around online for it. I got mine at nobleknight.com. I honestly dont' remember the cost, but IIRC it was not exorbitant. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:46:20
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
One of the things I thought of with the Mythic Sovereign is that, if you were, say, like myself and disasapointed at the decline of, say, Impiltur or Damara, this would be a great way to play a long lost scion of the Dragonbane line and make Damara what its "should have been."
Yes, and in fact that's even suggested by the text--a Mythic Sovereign can arise in Damara or Impiltur, among other places. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 13:35:27
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Check it out!
Fans of the Harpers will be especially interested.
Just to be fair, Christopher just suggested we check this out and said, "Fans of the Harpers will be especially interested."
He never said that fans of the Harpers would rejoice and sing songs.
I am not a huge fan of how those who harp have been changed, but I was definately interested in what Rich had to say about them.
ed:sp |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 03:55:10
I had a few thoughts on this.
First reaction was High Elven magic is back, second was you die before reaching level 31. *shrugs* |
| scererar |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 03:04:46
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Reading a PDF in depth makes my eyes hurt. Though I have bought several 2nd Edition PDF's from Paizo, mainly as reference materials. Besides, my FLGS has one in stock.
Press the print button... oh and make sure you have paper loaded into your machine. before you know it, boom.. printed copy .
I agree, trying to get comfortable on the couch to read a good book via a computer screen is just not the same experience as an original copy |
| scererar |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 02:58:57
quote:
Originally posted by arry
Personally I think we should give Chris a break. He is excited by something he has found out about the Realms, more power to him! Wanting to share it, Chris posted a link. Sanishiver didn't know about it, so that's one person helped.
Most posters here know what Chris' attitude to 4e Realms is, so any thread started by him is likely to be in that vein. It's not very nice to post just squashing the guy.
I thought that Candlekeep was for all fans of the Realms, whatever edition that is; please correct me if I am wrong.
+1 |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 23:58:43
Reading a PDF in depth makes my eyes hurt. Though I have bought several 2nd Edition PDF's from Paizo, mainly as reference materials. Besides, my FLGS has one in stock.
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| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 19:07:52
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Four bucks! That's, like, fifty pence or something right now, ain't it?
That just brings to mind the whole argument over the value of actual books over PDFs...
Oof! Maybe not the place for that argument though? Just trying to make a neutral statement that the contents of the gray box are readily available at a relatively low cost. |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 18:44:33
Interesting... |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 18:39:39
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Four bucks! That's, like, fifty pence or something right now, ain't it?
That just brings to mind the whole argument over the value of actual books over PDFs... |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 17:40:45
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Wow, the Grey Box gets mentioned. It's like that's the only source of Realms goodness. It'd be nice if people could easily get a copy of a twenty year old product!
Four bucks! That's, like, fifty pence or something right now, ain't it?
I think the reason that people are moved to bring up the Gray Box in comparison to 4E material is that it strikes them--or me, anyway--as the best comparison. This is, after all, a reboot. The amount of 4E material available right now is on par with the amount that was available in 1987, except, of course, that today's writers, scribes, and gamers also have access to the tons of great 2E and 3E material that came between, should they choose to use it (and they can choose to ignore it, too, obviously). |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 17:34:09
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Seriously. They actually wrote this in the blurb?
quote:
The Forgotten Realms campaign setting is famed for the powerful characters who have appeared in Faerûn over the years. Epic characters are a longstanding tradition in Abeir-Toril, ranging from the dreadful lich Larloch -- the most powerful of Faerûn’s mighty wizards -- to heroic figures such as the Seven Sisters or Elminster, the Sage of Shadowdale.
Seriously! They actually did!
And then they kept right on writing and continued with: "With the advent of the Spellplague and the passage of a century, many of Faerûn's famous residents have departed to their eternal rewards (or punishments), but others still survive ... and the boldest and most successful of player characters can hope to someday join their ranks.
Why yes they did add that. I mean, we already know that some have survived. Drizzy, Elminster (and the Simbul, surprisingly), mainly so novels can keep getting put out about them.
Doesn't change how that first quote was quite odd, given that the WoTC designers have spent the past year decrying the 'legions of epic good guys'.
quote:
quote:
Oh, and no Harper joy here. Aside from the Retcon of there only being seven gods and goddesses who gathered at the dancing place (way to sideline Lliira), these new 'Harpers' are still the new and improved and anti-Shadovar group. Sigh.
Yeah, I see where it says that the Harpers intend to fight "especially the Empire of Netheril and its plots," right there in the parenthetical remark after the declaration that to be Harper, one has to possess "the desire to fight oppression in any form."
What does that remind me of?
Oh yeah, the description of the Harpers in the gray box as an organization meant "to work for the causes of good, and to oppose the Zhentarim and the more aggessive trading kingdoms..." So, the Harpers of the 14th century were concerned with all the causes of good, with special mention made of one of the greatest threats in their area of operation, the Zhentarim (as evidenced by the Harper/Zhent conflict in many, many novels, video games, and RPG supplements).
Kind of like the Harpers of today are opposed to "oppression in any form," but are especially concerned with one of the greatest threats in their area of operation, Netheril.
Wow, the Grey Box gets mentioned. It's like that's the only source of Realms goodness. It'd be nice if people could easily get a copy of a twenty year old product!
Plenty of other books, including my favourite Realms source, the 3rd Edition FRCS, states quite clearly that the Zhents are just one of many groups that the Harpers face. Same with the 2nd Edition Code of the Harpers. It's that change in tone and emphasis that makes all the difference, really.
As for the idea that Rich is trying to just patch the Harpers back up to what he intimated them to be, have you actually read the text? It's pretty heavily focused on them being an anti-Shadovar group.
These ain't the Harpers, and this isn't the Realms. |
| Snotlord |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 17:11:13
I like it.
I'm happy Rich used the term "sun elf", and that he name-dropped so many historic characters. The history still seem to define the realms, as it is.
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 17:04:43
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
EDIT: Hmm, I like the Mythic Sovereign.
One of the things I thought of with the Mythic Sovereign is that, if you were, say, like myself and disasapointed at the decline of, say, Impiltur or Damara, this would be a great way to play a long lost scion of the Dragonbane line and make Damara what its "should have been." |
| Pandora |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:30:36
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Well the player picks his "destiny" from among those published by WotC and thus he makes the decision himself.
I'm aware of that, I'm just saying that player knowledge doesn't have to equal character knowledge.
Players who dont metagame are really rare IMO. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:29:09
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Well the player picks his "destiny" from among those published by WotC and thus he makes the decision himself.
I'm aware of that, I'm just saying that player knowledge doesn't have to equal character knowledge. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:20:31
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I have a bad feeling when I read stuff like: With the DM’s approval, choose a realm you are destined to rule. Even though it includes the "we arent to blame clause" of rule #0 (DM approval) its not really a good thing to have a clear path to become a "king" through an adventuring class. Rulers have to earn the trust of their subjects through roleplaying and not simply "spend a feat" for it.
That's a good point. I'd assume that anyone who picks this ED is expected to roleplay their path to the throne properly (and the character need not necessarily be aware that they are "destined to rule", even if the player is).
Well the player picks his "destiny" from among those published by WotC and thus he makes the decision himself. If its done via houseruling - as Chosen of Moradin said - its the DM who decides the player is worthy enough.
A "destiny" is something which fate puts in front of a *might be hero* and the hero then has to decide if he wants to face it or flee it. So that name is horribly wrong for such a game stat IMO, but this is a problem of our times in trying to find more extreme extremes to make newer things more interesting than older ones. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:17:46
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Pandora, I don´t see the Mythic Sovereign exactly like you. IMO, I think that it´s a way, in rules, to do something that I already do, in house rules.
Well of course it should be possible to become a ruler of a country, but this is not really something an adventurer has in his career planning, eh? Even if its not going to happen in your campaign I really fear those campaigns with a "weak DM" who is facing a ruleslawyer who points to things like this and says "I want to rule my country now because its in the rules" (followed by increased taxes so the ruler can get more magic items ...). IMO houserules - or rather DM decision since these things should happen only very rarely and having a fixed rule for it seems a bit much - are the way to go for this. You dont become "legend" because your profession says so, but because your deeds make you famous enough so every commoner speaks your name with awe. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:14:25
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I have a bad feeling when I read stuff like: With the DM’s approval, choose a realm you are destined to rule. Even though it includes the "we arent to blame clause" of rule #0 (DM approval) its not really a good thing to have a clear path to become a "king" through an adventuring class. Rulers have to earn the trust of their subjects through roleplaying and not simply "spend a feat" for it.
That's a good point. I'd assume that anyone who picks this ED is expected to roleplay their path to the throne properly (and the character need not necessarily be aware that they are "destined to rule", even if the player is). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:11:56
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
To be fair, Rich seemed pretty sure at one point the Harpers, more or less as they were (albeit reunified) would still be in the Realms. I think there may have been a some miscommunication when it came to including the group in the actual Campaign Guide, and I think it was pretty clear that a lot of fans weren't happy that the group was altered and minimized the way it was, so I'm not going to beat up Rich for trying to patch the Harpers back to being what he intimated they would be.
I agree. It's possible Rich was trying to do some "damage control", here. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:04:20
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Check it out!
Fans of the Harpers will be especially interested.
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
EDIT: Hmm, I like the Mythic Sovereign. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 13:58:08
Thanks, all.
PDK, I wasn't trying to force anything, I didn't think. I simply posted a link. A scribe took the opportunity for what has become, sadly, a predictable reaction, and I reacted to that scribe's post with one I thought met its tone and bettered its...its everything else, in fact.
Most of the rest of the posts here are interesting. Pandora's fascinated with the hows and whys of campaign gameplay and teased out something from the article he has an issue with, described the content he was concerned about fairly and accurately, and then discussed it reasonably. He offered an informed critique.
Others, y'know, not so much. But, happily, I've noticed that most (not all) of the longer-resident scribes with significant problems with newer material are coming around to either ignoring it or talking about it, rather than posting things that, well... If I were to describe them with any color, flair, and accuracy at all, said description would violate the Code of Conduct. 
I think I'll still be here in a year. Sure hope so, anyway!
Cheers,
Christopher
PS If it's all the same, I go by the full polysyllabic "Christopher."
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| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 12:54:41
Exactly, arry.
What is the real reason for someone to see a pro-active 4th edition scroll, to come here only to express his/her feelings, bashing the new setting and the ones that like it?
There are dozens of scrolls for this, and I think that some members here need a little of fresh air. This is very annoying, for a lot of peopler. I don´t like of the new Realms. But I like very much of the new rules(and I pretend to use it in my 3e Realms), so the players guide, and the articles, are a must for me.
With this in mind, it will be a real pleasure to see a scroll, only one scroll, where we could discuss about the rules, about the changes, without fear, without have to "defend an opinion".
Pandora, I don´t see the Mythic Sovereign exactly like you. IMO, I think that it´s a way, in rules, to do something that I already do, in house rules.
I always ask for my players about the dreams and the future of their characters. What they want, what they aspire, what they dream of. And I have my group of players that played the monarch. So, to have a way, in the rules, to do something like this, is a great idea!
To the fluff, I go for the Powers of Faerûn tome. |
| arry |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 11:23:18
Personally I think we should give Chris a break. He is excited by something he has found out about the Realms, more power to him! Wanting to share it, Chris posted a link. Sanishiver didn't know about it, so that's one person helped.
Most posters here know what Chris' attitude to 4e Realms is, so any thread started by him is likely to be in that vein. It's not very nice to post just squashing the guy.
I've never made a secret of my negative feelings for 4e Realms but apart from finding the references to great heroes rather ironic it's got nothing to do with the Realms that I play in.
I thought that Candlekeep was for all fans of the Realms, whatever edition that is; please correct me if I am wrong. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 10:49:29
I have a bad feeling when I read stuff like: With the DM’s approval, choose a realm you are destined to rule. Even though it includes the "we arent to blame clause" of rule #0 (DM approval) its not really a good thing to have a clear path to become a "king" through an adventuring class. Rulers have to earn the trust of their subjects through roleplaying and not simply "spend a feat" for it.
For Leadership (3e) spending a feat is ok, because the number of followers are governed by your actual reputation and can vary, but this 4e version kinda declares the realm as your follower and doesnt include possible rebellion due to bad rule. Smart DMs would include that, but I sense too many greedy "wannabe Kings" to make this a good thing.
4th edition is a different playing style from old (A)D&D and I dont think there were ever any effects that gave others a new save for running effects. Sounds kinda fishy IMO. I also noted that many of the powers shown there have multiple effects, which kinda bites with the claim of making the game easier and less complicated.
I think it should be unnecessary to add an explanation of what the Harpers are in the "Harper of Legend" chapter. To get there you should know that by heart and no repetition of DC 10 Knowledge info should be necessary. This is for EPIC levels and not for newbies.
Since there is a path (kinda grandly called "destiny") to become an elven High Mage AND they ramble on about Mythals long enough I cant wait for those "Create Mythal" Powers to get published. That would be great for everyones Mythic Sovereign buddy of course ... [I hope the sarcasm here is obvious enough.] |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 07:26:43
So the Realms are famous for all the stuff they got rid of...
Hmmm...
Wonder what its famous for now?  <smirk>
Seriously, C_R, while on the one hand thy say the Seven, Chosen, and Harpers 'ruined' FR (their words, not mine), and then on the other, here they are back-peddling and saying that is what made the setting great.
These guys should be politiicans.... |
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