| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 00:41:01
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a
quote:
This month’s Design & Development column is brought to you by Senior Managing Editor Phil Athans and Designer Bruce Cordell.
Starting Points in the New Edition
Philip Athans: Discussions about a new edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS world began in the late spring of 2005. As the FORGOTTEN REALMS novel line editor, I was pulled into the discussions early. I’m not quite sure when the idea of jumping the timeline forward was first proposed, or even who first proposed it, but after spending a couple weeks mulling it over, I was an early and enthusiastic supporter of the idea.
Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. In fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products.
How do you do something like that without reinventing the entire world?
A two-fold plan emerged: A great leap into the future would allow nearly every part of Faerûn to appear fresh to everyone, both new fans and old. No one could be intimately familiar with the previous century’s happenings. Every place would have some element of novelty simply because a century can’t pass without even the most stable of kingdoms seeing some shift or alteration.
The other part of the plan involved literally bringing completely “new” lands into the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. With Ed Greenwood’s help, the real forgotten realm of Abeir returned to Toril, in the midst of a cataclysm of unleashed wild magic.
PA: By the end of June, Bruce Cordell, Richard Baker, and I were assembled as the FORGOTTEN REALMS revision team. That summer we participated in a series of long meetings in which we hammered out the FORGOTTEN REALMS 4th edition “Revision Guide,” a document that would later morph, with the help of a lot more people, into the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide.
BRC: They were long meetings followed by long writing sessions to create drafts of what we’d just discussed, followed by more meetings. We talked about every realm, great and small, including the cosmology. Indeed, the cosmology we settled on as one that would work best for FORGOTTEN REALMS was the cosmology that the D&D core rules itself accepted—excluding the particular deities, of course.
PA: Before we got into the specifics of what the new edition of FORGOTTEN REALMS would look like, we wanted to be sure we had a clear shared understanding of what the FORGOTTEN REALMS was then, and what we all wanted it to be like. We worked together, and with a number of key people both inside and outside of Wizards of the Coast, we organized our principles for the new edition around nine core ideals.
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FORGOTTEN REALMS Core Ideals
What is this world? What is it all about? Where should we be taking it?
1. It’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient realms to explore and discover.
PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store.
BRC: Even my own first steps in novel fiction showed me how the novels and games were having to move to obscure spots to tell new stories. Darkvision takes place largely in Durpar, a country hardly even on the map. Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond. Other folks were finding themselves similarly squeezed to the edges—even long-time writers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It was a trend the editors noted first. What do you do when all the ancient realms have already been explored and discovered?
Aside from jumping the timeline enough to be significant and splicing lost worlds back into the core setting, one thing we could do is to change how the very rules of D&D work. That opportunity was serendipitous, and it was a fantastic chance for us to see all of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting through a completely new lens.
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2. It’s a thousand stories, all happening at once.
PA: From the novel line point of view, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has always succeeded because there is no core story. It isn’t a world where if you weren’t a member of, say, the Fellowship of the Ring, all you were really doing was watching the real heroes. The world has to have room for a 4th level D&D character, or the apprentice mage from the next novel, to save, if not the world, then his or her little part of it and not feel unimportant or left out.
BRC: In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys, the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Certainly, NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs. Because of the very nature of the player characters, they are special, a cut above other folks and even potentially touched by fate to one day take up an epic destiny.
PA: Even as we discussed the various agents of change that would help us introduce new elements for the D&D game into the setting, we knew that just like there shouldn’t be one set of heroes, there shouldn’t be one single agent of change. Though the Spellplague has had a huge impact on the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, it’s not the only thing that’s happened in the hundred years between editions. It’s not the only explanation for why things work or look different.
BRC: Speaking of the Spellplague, even though I was one of its original proponents, I feel like the concept got far too much promotion, both prior to the release of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide, and in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide itself. At the time where this 4th Edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is set, over ninety years have passed since the Spellplague. Most folks in Faerûn don’t give the Year of Blue Fire a second thought or wonder how strange it was that there used to be a goddess of magic. Yes, it was a cataclysmic event in its day, but that day is long past. Many other factors are responsible for changes to the landscape and cosmology—so many that the Spellplague is mostly a memory (except for those places where pockets yet linger).
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3. It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.
PA: This was a message that should have been getting out all along, but somewhere along the way—was it the Time of Troubles?—a notion emerged among the readers and players that the FORGOTTEN REALMS was a world built for a small group of superheroes and a place to read about their adventures. It didn’t have room for more heroes. Wow, did we have to make sure people knew that wasn’t the case, and back that up with a world that put a greater emphasis on villains and that asked you to be the hero.
BRC: The new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting delivers bad guys in droves: the Shadovar and Thay, of course, but also strange threats out of Abeir, including not only dragon-ruled nations, but even realms recently ruled by primordials! And there’s that floating city of ancient creatures that hovers in a perpetual storm over the Sea of Fallen Stars. Just what is the Aboleth Sovereignty up to?
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4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend.
PA: I think the best example of this is one we used in various presentations in the past. Core D&D will give you the rules for a +1 longsword, but in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting that +1 longsword is the Platinum Tongue of Garthak, fashioned as the parade sword for Garthak Hammerfist, patriarch of the dwarven clan of Hammerfist, one of the ruling houses of ancient Gauntlgrym. Everything in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has a story.
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5. It’s a vibrant, ever-changing world that is constantly moving forward.
PA: For years we’ve been closely watching sales trends of the novels and seeing that, without exception, books that move the world forward, however incrementally, tend to outsell books that go back into the past or that have less or no effect on the greater setting. What we call “Realms-shaking events,” like Troy Denning’s Return of the Archwizards series or Mel Odom’s The Threat from the Sea series, had become the rocky center of the FORGOTTEN REALMS novel line. As we talked about resetting the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, we knew that what we were really doing was establishing a new starting point, and that the world would evolve and grow from there.
BRC: The Realms-shaking events that drive sales for the novels are a dichotomy and ongoing tension in the game. From the point of view of game setting design, it’s hard to write a definitive “Guide to the FORGOTTEN REALMS” when you know that a year down the line, three different novel lines will have killed off, altered, or in some other way changed basic features described in that putative “guide.”
But as Phil notes, moving forward is fun. Not moving the game world side of things forward with the novels would mean stagnation for the game setting. Everyone wants to feel they are part of the same dynamic world described in The Orc King, Shadowrealm, or Swordmage.
PA: We made sure that at least some of the transition stories were told in novel trilogies. In these novels, the fans can see in detail the development of new or the destruction of old realms (like the establishment of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows or the fall of the city of Luskan in R.A. Salvatore’s Transitions series), changes in the pantheon (as in Lisa Smedman’s The Lady Penitent series and R.A. Salvatore’s The Ghost King), shifts in the halls of power (Paul S. Kemp’s The Twilight War series), or the reordering of the cosmos itself (in Thomas M. Reid’s The Empyrean Odyssey series).
BRC: Phil has nicely set me up to either ignore a chance to plug myself or dive in. I’m diving in: The Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy explores how the city of Xxiphu came to be stationed over Faerûn and what its presence portends, if strict vigil over its beslimed residents is not kept.
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6. It’s core D&D “plus.”
PA: We started out with the absolute conviction that the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide would render no part of the core D&D rulebooks obsolete and vice versa. Every D&D race, class, monster, and magic item has its place in the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, and we’ll give you more, like the swordmage and the genasi. No matter what, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a Dungoens & Dragons world.
BRC: Indeed, core D&D and the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting have never been closer. A DM can pick up the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide and use one or two of its nicely contained regions in his own game if he wishes. I think a lot of D&D campaigns will find themselves with genasi PCs, swordmages, and perhaps even spellscarred PCs touched by the fire of wild magic—even those campaigns that do not take place on Toril.
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7. It’s contemporary fantasy.
PA: Though 3rd Edition D&D went a long way in updating the look and feel of the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, we knew we still had a long way to go before it felt truly contemporary. This core ideal informed pervasively. How do we preserve the spirit of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, while making it look like a 21st century fantasy property—one that would appeal to a contemporary audience? I think the art, the political and philosophical ambiguity, and the sheer scope of the revised setting shows you just how far the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has come from its 1980s roots.
BRC: Here’s one example. The great and ever-increasing popularity of eastern fighting styles and eastern myths sees a similarly increased profile in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. Shou from down the Golden Way have continued to settle in Faerûn, and they have claimed a nation all their own west of the Sea of Fallen Stars that they have named Nathlan. Extraordinary feats of martial proficiency abound in these regions. When the day comes that the monk and related character classes sees the light of day in a future Player’s Handbook, you can expect Nathlan, Telflamm, portions of Westgate, and other places similarly Shou-settled to catch fire with possibility.
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8. It’s 50% all new.
PA: Okay, don’t hold us to that 50% figure exactly. I’m not sure there’s even a way to measure what percentage of it is new, but that’s the core ideal we started with. We knew we wanted big parts of the map to be marked, for all intents and purposes: “Here Be Dragons.” This goes back to the first point: If the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a place for your characters to explore, there better be some stuff you haven’t seen before!
BRC: Apparently I’m example boy on this article. Well, here’s another: Returned Abeir—an entire content flush with new wonder and conceived by Ed Greenwood’s bountiful pen, no less. Other portions of Abeir fell into Toril, too, but they are now part of Faerûn: the dragonborn land of Tymanther and the genasi-ruled badlands of Akanûl.
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9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was.
PA: I guess you could call this the “not throwing out the baby or the bathwater” rule. If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world.
BRC: You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot.
But barring strange little bits like that, if a story has been told about something to establish it in the previous setting edition, then another story describes how that feature reached its current manifestation in the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS setting—even if we haven’t yet told you that story. It’s a wide world filled new opportunity. I can’t wait for my Elfharrow elf barbarian character to go on his next adventure. When’s that going to be, Phil?
PA: The week after we get back from Gen Con Indy!
BRIMSTONE 
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| StarBog |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 09:35:21
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I just wish someone would tell us about the five-sided pyramids under Ascore. 
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
The NDA Demons sitting threateningly on your shoulder again? |
| Pandora |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 08:59:22
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
Please tell me this is tongue in cheek.
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
I can't believe that Plan B now actually looks to be the sane one: http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7940/1220293188489kh4.jpg 
I also have stumbled upon an annotaded version of the 4e FR... but I don't think forum rules will allow me to post something as NSFW as it is.
That map is both a nightmare (no thought given to much of anything) and interesting (because it reminds me distinctly of what has happened to the Realms).
IMO its just a nightmare ... but we have to wait for the MMORPG now ... |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 05:17:02
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
Please tell me this is tongue in cheek.
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
I can't believe that Plan B now actually looks to be the sane one: http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7940/1220293188489kh4.jpg
I also have stumbled upon an annotaded version of the 4e FR... but I don't think forum rules will allow me to post something as NSFW as it is.
That map is both a nightmare (no thought given to much of anything) and interesting (because it reminds me distinctly of what has happened to the Realms). |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 01:39:25
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I just wish someone would tell us about the five-sided pyramids under Ascore.
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
There was material written on this which was excised from the LEoF product. I did have it but it is gone in my last HD crash which wiped out a bit of stuff.
The developments in that regard were certianly interesting but of a nature that didn't cause me any surprise when they were cut.
-- George Krashos
Does that mean they made to much sense and didn't rock the boat?  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 01:11:35
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I just wish someone would tell us about the five-sided pyramids under Ascore.
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
There was material written on this which was excised from the LEoF product. I did have it but it is gone in my last HD crash which wiped out a bit of stuff.
The developments in that regard were certianly interesting but of a nature that didn't cause me any surprise when they were cut.
-- George Krashos
|
| Jakk |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 00:22:20
This is a fascinating thread, begun with a saddening excerpt. Reading the quotes from the column was enough for me. Wizards will not be getting another dime of my money, nor that of any gamers I play with, because we all feel the same way on this issue, for one of two reasons. My Realms campaign DM is as repulsed and horrified by the changes as I am, and the other two games I play in are in homebrew settings.
My Realms campaign is actually ahead of the ending of the GHotR anyway, because it picks up with the sons and daughters of the characters from our last campaign, which I DM'ed in the waning years of 2nd Edition and had advanced to 1375 by the end of it, which wrapped up with "Return to the Tomb of Horrors" and some custom follow-up stuff involving the Twisted Rune; we had earlier played the Undermountain trilogy and the FR/Ravenloft crossover, so the Twisted Rune was known to, and knew about, the PCs; the post-ToH storyline took care of loose ends, including some famous liches (temporarily, at least; phylacteries are never obvious in my game, nor should they ever be).
In any case, our new campaign is set around 1400-1410 DR, and we're enjoying things just fine with no RSEs. A couple of gods died in or after the Year of Blue Fire, but the gods of magic were not among them, and nothing so Eberronish as the Spellplague has happened. Cormyr and Sembia went to war, but that had to happen with the fate of Ordulin (and I like the return of the Shades, and even the refounding of Netheril after the Great Leap Forward; I just was hoping to learn of the fates of Selunatarr and Garnetallisar before it all blew up). Oh well... since nothing published now can possibly be considered as canon for my campaign, I get to make it all up. I just wish someone would tell us about the five-sided pyramids under Ascore.
ADHD will be the death of RPGs... but not any time soon, given that we're supposedly living in an aging population... maybe WotC should have considered that before catering to the munchkin crowd. |
| bitter thorn |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 03:04:16
Please tell me this is tongue in cheek.
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
I can't believe that Plan B now actually looks to be the sane one: http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7940/1220293188489kh4.jpg
I also have stumbled upon an annotaded version of the 4e FR... but I don't think forum rules will allow me to post something as NSFW as it is.
|
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 08:17:15
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
In other words, this Elminster fella that is only the tip of the legion (a metaphore I never heard , but then again, I am not an native English speaker or writer) is not an NPC.
Just for your information, they are implying that Elminster is a member of a greater "army" of do-gooders (hence the word "legion"). Needless to say, I find such a statement to be faulty.
I understood that much  . It's really the expression that I was referring to - I'd heard about "tip of the iceberg" (who has not, ever since the captain of the Titanic learned the hard way that, unlike Scotch, the Atlantic does not come straight, but only "on the rocks"?), and "tip of the spear", but I'd never heard or read "tip of the legion" before. |
| Razz |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 02:09:52
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
the new era of tabletopping.
Ah, you mean the new era of MMO-On Paper-RPG Tabletopping.
I guess the new D&D should be called and MMOOPRPG? (Massive Multiplayer Online On Paper Roll Playing Game?) Too many letters to say, since MMORPG has been shortened to MMO latel, maybe just MMOOP...rhymes with poop. 
BTW, Thauramarth, beautifully said! I had to read it twice over and give a standing ovation to that critique! |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 19:48:40
Gosh, wish I could find all that history and detail that Turmish supposedly has. I mean, I'd be annoyed at the hundreds of pages of notes I've written but it'd be pretty cool to have the law system detailed and some notes on what mercenary companies actually occupy Turmish and what merchant houses sponsor them.
Anyone come across this material? I mean, if there was nothing left to detail then it must exist right? Anyone?
Oh, and I tried to pick up the FRCG the other day. Smaller book, larger cost and the geographic excerpts given would require massive expansion for me to even consider running a campaign in any of the areas. Massive expansion. I don't think there's an area presented in the book that I'd feel comfortable running without at least a few months work (sans job, with job it'd be more like half a year). I might be wrong, could be that I didn't see that area, but I highly doubt it.
Anyhow, just more motivation for me to compile my notes in a way that someone else could use them too. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 16:01:18
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
In other words, this Elminster fella that is only the tip of the legion (a metaphore I never heard , but then again, I am not an native English speaker or writer) is not an NPC.
Just for your information, they are implying that Elminster is a member of a greater "army" of do-gooders (hence the word "legion"). Needless to say, I find such a statement to be faulty. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 01:19:27
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
I know, but what's done is done. Perhaps it is time to move on to whatever direction takes us? We all have our views of what happened (mine are like yours, less than complementary), but I'm not sure I see the sense of kicking a dead dog, so to speak.
I know that whilst I'm playing (and enjoying) LFR, apart from this, for me, the Realms will always be 1375 DR, whither that be AD&D, 3.x or 4e.
Wise words ... our lamenting about the shortcomings of 4e and the FR version for it wont change a thing. Those who dont accept the weak explanations wont use the new stuff and stick to the old while making up new stories. Those who can accept the new gaming style 4e brought will "have to" (or its a lot of work involved for conversion) move on to the new era of tabletopping. |
| StarBog |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 19:47:43
I know, but what's done is done. Perhaps it is time to move on to whatever direction takes us? We all have our views of what happened (mine are like yours, less than complementary), but I'm not sure I see the sense of kicking a dead dog, so to speak.
I know that whilst I'm playing (and enjoying) LFR, apart from this, for me, the Realms will always be 1375 DR, whither that be AD&D, 3.x or 4e. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 12:02:09
Very nice said. Given the amount of unfounded claims, contradictions, and simple lack of comprehension of the FR, this interview is a shame, and it disqualifies these two authors in what they have done. I especially dislike this little piece of text:
quote:
Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change.
No, it is not. Neither shocking nor jaw-dropping. This leap alone could have made a very decent 4e realms without any major catastrophes, only letting the "normal" flow of events influence the realms. In 100 years there could be much happening, you know.
And I truly loathe the absurd hyperbole - it is in the same line with "cewl, l34t, new edition" marketing nonsense we got in the last months. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 10:06:03
Please note that my comments are written with my POV in mind, which is that of a gamer, rather than a novel reader. I am a gamer (and a DM, at that) first and foremost, and I could have lived quite well with FR without even one novel ever having been published. (Although it would not have been as happy a life without, say, the Sword and Song series, and some others).
quote:
Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. In fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products.
(...)
4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend.
PA: I think the best example of this is one we used in various presentations in the past. Core D&D will give you the rules for a +1 longsword, but in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting that +1 longsword is the Platinum Tongue of Garthak, fashioned as the parade sword for Garthak Hammerfist, patriarch of the dwarven clan of Hammerfist, one of the ruling houses of ancient Gauntlgrym. Everything in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has a story.
Right. The old world has to be redone, because there's too much history. One of the main points about the new world is that it is "full of history and legend." Maybe I have a different view of what constitutes a contradiction than the rest of the world, but I am puzzled. I find the lack of philosophical coherence... disturbing.
quote:
1. It’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient realms to explore and discover.
PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store.
I see a couple of things here that I regret. First of all, there's a confirmation that the Forgotten Realms is not a gaming setting anymore, it's a shared world for fiction, with some RPG thrown in to get the most out of the franchise. In my view, a gaming world can have some novel support, but having a good, solid gaming world based on a fiction-oriented world, and a fiction-world with a high output of fiction, for that matter, is simply not possible. A gaming world, in my view, has to have a stable foundation, with a basic core. You can add thousands upon thousands of beautiful locations here and there, and leave gaming groups the possibility to fill in the blank parts of the map (you could import entire countries in the empty spaces on the Western Heartlands map), publish expansions, which detail particular realms, cities, groups of people, and what not.
There seems to be some confusion here – a roleplaying game is not identical to Civilization or SMAC, or even a MMORPG. It's not all about the erasing the black areas on the map. It can be for the players, but the DM needs to have an idea what the basics are. Not every gaming session is about visiting new places, seeing new people, and killing them.
quote:
2. It’s a thousand stories, all happening at once.
Given that at the rate of around two or three hundred published stories the shared world reached its "well-trampled edges" in twenty years, how long before the next one-hundred year jump occurs? Next week? OK, sarcasm off. Bad, bad Thauramarth.
quote:
PA: From the novel line point of view, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has always succeeded because there is no core story. It isn’t a world where if you weren’t a member of, say, the Fellowship of the Ring, all you were really doing was watching the real heroes. The world has to have room for a 4th level D&D character, or the apprentice mage from the next novel, to save, if not the world, then his or her little part of it and not feel unimportant or left out.
BRC: In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys, the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Certainly, NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs. Because of the very nature of the player characters, they are special, a cut above other folks and even potentially touched by fate to one day take up an epic destiny.
This is the one that ticks me off. Again, the idea of "Elminster and the big swinging masculine appendices of the Do Good and Be Immortal and More Powerful than EVERYBODY" legion (which I do not subscribe to, by the way) did not originate in the gaming products. If you look at the old Grey Box and FR7 Hall of Heroes, Elminster? 26th level wizard, with psionic wild talents. Nothing to scoff at, mind you, but remember, back then the (1st edition) PHB already made allowances for 29th-level PCs (and thus NPCs). The notion of the Uber-characters (and this whole idea of Chosen, which, in my view, was a Bad, Bad idea to begin with, even when it was only for Mystra) did not come from the gaming products, it was developed in the novel lines, where a lot of them concentrated on the big do-gooders. Also note that a considerable pack of novels that concentrated on the smaller fry, but still went for the Big, Epic stuff, as in "a novel cannot be successful unless it reboots the world (or a considerable part thereof) entirely.
In other words, this Elminster fella that is only the tip of the legion (a metaphore I never heard , but then again, I am not an native English speaker or writer) is not an NPC. NPCs are for games. Uber-Elminster is a novel character.
This is the problem with trying to keep a novel line and a games line on equal footing. You can't - one inevitably has to dominate the other. In my opinion (not founded in empirical facts), it's a bit like the "Star Trek" universe - depending on your taste, everybody wants to play Kirk, Picard, Sisko, or Janeway (OK, maybe not Janeway). In Star Trek, fiction predominates, roleplaying games are just another way to get some leverage out of the franchise.
By the way, having a bunch of high-level characters in gaming products does not, in and by itself, create an impression that the PCs are insignificant. Greyhawk's Circle of Eight (a group of nine "high-level" wizards, though only two of them were 20th level of higher) was, in relative terms, probably more powerful and more intrusive in the setting than any other NPC. And yet, I have the impression (though I could be wrong) that people did not like to play in the Greyhawk setting because the Circle of Eight was taking care of all business.
If the whole idea was to make room for the little guys, why just not re-orient the novels? It can work, you know. From what I understand , R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt stories have consistently been the best-selling series in the FR novel line. And yet, when you look beyond the uber-invincible Drizzt, there are no world-shattering events in these novels, no immortal divine agents (other than Obould) with super-cool mega-powers. The line is just about some guys and a gal from a backwater land, that got into a war (which came and went without hardly anybody else noticing), went to look for a lost dwarven city (there's a couple of those around, I should think), had to go to another city to rescue one of their own (and yet did not flatten the city, they just replaced one crime boss with another, in the end), went back and fought a very local (and very out-of-sight, as in, entirely underground) war to reclaim said dwarven city, then fought another (very underground) war to keep it from the bad neighbors, then went back to explain to said bad neighbors that you just do not do that (killing a couple of minor characters along the way and, yes, I consider most of the KIA drow, of which there seem to be several millions, minor characters in the grand scheme of things), and then went on some more adventures (fighting pirates, fighting a demon, and then recovering a stolen item), before getting into another war (on a bit of a larger scale, but still, relatively limited in scope, and easy to ignore if you do not feel like it). The only major influence of the Drizzt line on the setting was bringing drow front and center as major bad guys. Still, objectively, how much of a real threat are they? Has anyone compared the number of death by cart accidents in Calimport to the number of drow-related deaths recently? Even taking into account Jarlaxle?
In short, the game setting did not create the "League of Invincible Lime-light hogging NPCs" problem, the choices made with regard to the novels did.
quote:
PA: Even as we discussed the various agents of change that would help us introduce new elements for the D&D game into the setting, we knew that just like there shouldn’t be one set of heroes, there shouldn’t be one single agent of change.
You mean there are other starships than the Enterprise? That's right. It would have been possible, of course, to re-orient the novel line (because that's the main issue here) to, you know, concentrate more on the little guys?
quote:
BRC: Speaking of the Spellplague, even though I was one of its original proponents, I feel like the concept got far too much promotion, both prior to the release of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide, and in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide itself.
And who's to blame for that, I wonder.
quote:
3. It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.
PA: This was a message that should have been getting out all along, but somewhere along the way—was it the Time of Troubles?—a notion emerged among the readers and players that the FORGOTTEN REALMS was a world built for a small group of superheroes and a place to read about their adventures. It didn’t have room for more heroes. Wow, did we have to make sure people knew that wasn’t the case, and back that up with a world that put a greater emphasis on villains and that asked you to be the hero.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but when you look at the evolution of the proportion of gaming products versus fiction (novels and short stories), over time, the emphasis has shifted clearly to fiction. When all the emphasis is on fiction (in my view, an erroneous decision), and the emphasis of that fiction is on the "small group of superheroes" (an erroneous decision on top of another erroneous decision), of course, people will get the impression that the setting is all about the "superheroes". It seems to me that the message Philip refers to may not have gotten across because a) that message has never been expressed earlier, and b) in any event, publishing practice is contrary to this message.
Plus, "a greater emphasis on villains" was required? Excuse me? Between the drow (see above), the Zhentarim, Hellgate Keep (which, for reasons still beyond me, was blown up offstage), the Red Wizards of Thay, the Cult of the Dragon, the Twisted Rune, the orcs of the north, the city of Shade (which I do not care for, but it's a bit hard to deny they are there now, at least in canon) and many of the noble families in Waterdeep and beyond, plus a scattering of liches (starting with Shoon), there's need for more emphasis on "villains"? OK, a lot of them came across as buffoons, but that can be remedied by changing the style and guidelines for the authors, no?
Perhaps a new edition of the old campaign guides would have been in order, only with the villains in boldtype. There's your emphasis.
quote:
5. It’s a vibrant, ever-changing world that is constantly moving forward.
PA: For years we’ve been closely watching sales trends of the novels and seeing that, without exception, books that move the world forward, however incrementally, tend to outsell books that go back into the past or that have less or no effect on the greater setting.
Maybe marketing has something to to with that? Marketing exam question. Please compare the following marketing pitches.
1) The RETURN OF THE ARCHWIZARDS! The Coolest, Greatest, most Mega, nay, Giga, nay Peta fantastic event to hit the bookshops since Tut-Ankh-Author carved the first hieroglyph.
2) Harper goes out, Elminster steps in, Zhentarim look like idiots. Yet another Harper novel (yawn).
Also, see my argument about Salvatore above. Finally, constanly moving forward is overrated. Ask anyone who's been in a seventy-ton truck heading towards a concrete wall at a hundred an hour.
A gaming setting needs some movement, but it does not in its entirety constantly need to move forward.
quote:
BRC: The Realms-shaking events that drive sales for the novels are a dichotomy and ongoing tension in the game. From the point of view of game setting design, it’s hard to write a definitive “Guide to the FORGOTTEN REALMS” when you know that a year down the line, three different novel lines will have killed off, altered, or in some other way changed basic features described in that putative “guide.”
But as Phil notes, moving forward is fun. Not moving the game world side of things forward with the novels would mean stagnation for the game setting. Everyone wants to feel they are part of the same dynamic world described in The Orc King, Shadowrealm, or Swordmage.
So, you want epic stories, since they seem to be more popular (never mind Salvatore, see above). Never mind about the fact whether all people, and gamers in particular, want them, but sales figures are what they are. But then why, for the love of Niccolo, do you put them all in realms-shattering novels, which cater to passive consumpiton? If your idea is to put player characters front and center, then why the emphasis on novels? For those old enough to remember, one of the reasons role-playing games were developed was to allow people to create their own stories, including epic stories. Emphasis (a popular word, today) on "own stories". The Realm-Shaking Events novels limited players' possibilities, so the solution is to do more of the same and, by the way, basically erase all that's happened before?
The problem here is that WotC is trying to square the circle – you can have epic roleplaying games, with minor support in novels (minor, not so much in numbers, but in scope for each novel to impose irreversible and inevitable changes on the canon world that noboyd can ignore), or you can have epic fiction, with a roleplaying game playing second fiddle. You cannot have a coherent world that caters to both epic changes all the time, and epic roleplaying all of the time. If novels emphasize the role of the super-goods, it is a somewhat incongruous to complain that players get the impression that the super-goods rule the turf.
quote:
7. It’s contemporary fantasy.
Ahum. It's a about a medieval fantastic setting, and yet it has to be "contemporary"?
quote:
I think the art, the political and philosophical ambiguity, and the sheer scope of the revised setting shows you just how far the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has come from its 1980s roots.
A bit too far, for my taste, but "political and philosophical ambiguity"? Alright, back in the old days, TSR's Code of Conduct required the Zhentarim to look like the incompetent cousins of the Keystone Cops, but that's been a while now, right?
By the way, political and philosophical (and moral) ambiguity in fantasy are sooooo twentieth century (see: Michael Moorcock, Eternal Champion series).
quote:
BRC: Here’s one example.
Nice. Examples are nice.
quote:
The great and ever-increasing popularity of eastern fighting styles and eastern myths sees a similarly increased profile in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting.
Careful there, those eastern myths carry a lot of history with them.
quote:
Shou from down the Golden Way have continued to settle in Faerûn, and they have claimed a nation all their own west of the Sea of Fallen Stars that they have named Nathlan. Extraordinary feats of martial proficiency abound in these regions. When the day comes that the monk and related character classes sees the light of day in a future Player’s Handbook, you can expect Nathlan, Telflamm, portions of Westgate, and other places similarly Shou-settled to catch fire with possibility.
I hope the fires of possibility do not lead to going down in flames. Oh, you want more eastern fighting techniques. Maybe reviving Kara-Tur (or even putting Rokugan in its place) would have been nice. Especially since those existed, and there was already a rationale for the Orient to be present in Faerûn. This could justify a new expansion, but a complete reboot of the settlement?
When it comes to giving relevant examples to support a thesis... not the best work I have ever seen.
quote:
8. It’s 50% all new.
PA: Okay, don’t hold us to that 50% figure exactly.
Don't worry - I won't.
quote:
I’m not sure there’s even a way to measure what percentage of it is new, but that’s the core ideal we started with. We knew we wanted big parts of the map to be marked, for all intents and purposes: “Here Be Dragons.” This goes back to the first point: If the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a place for your characters to explore, there better be some stuff you haven’t seen before!
Well, every village and hamlet in the Volo's Guides also count as stuff (the word alone...) I "haven't seen before." Every dungeon that's never even been put on the map, but is added as part of a scenario is stuff I "haven't seen before."
quote:
BRC: Apparently I’m example boy on this article.
You may very well think that. I could not possibly comment.
quote:
9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was.
PA: I guess you could call this the “not throwing out the baby or the bathwater” rule. If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away.
Nope. We're just not expecting anyone to read it. Too much history, you see.
quote:
Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world.
Hold on, did I not read some where that the Realms were crumbling under the enormous weight of details? Oh. Right. Earlier in this interview. Seriously, this sounds like a Very Very Very Bad Idea to me. After all, would all of that not require familiarity with, well, you know, everything ever published about the Forgotten Realms?
quote:
We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world.
BRC: You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot.
Can be arranged in one sentence. Regis invented Halfling Growth Hormone. Plus, a lot of Dutch married into the halflings. OK, two sentences. There, explained. Can we go back to the Old Grey Box Realms now?
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| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 22:45:32
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
To be honest, I do not comprehend the argument that the Realms was dying under the weight of its own history. That was the thing that drew me to FR in the first place, its rich and very detailed lore.
I think that WotC is looking for a different demographic, now. On a different board, after 3e came out, there was a long discussion about frontlisting titles. Basically, the largest sales for an item are within the first 90 days, and then it begins a quick decline in sales. That was the cause for all the FLGS having excess stock on hand from many 3rd party publishers. If it didn’t sell quickly, they were stuck with it. Everyone wanted what was new and shiny when it first came out, and we ended up with two or three splatbooks from WotC alone each month, with 3.x suffering from bloat.
I can still see that happening now. WotC wants those who say “I must have it now” and will get bored with it in a few years and want something else new and shiny. That is why there will be a new setting each year. I still haunt other boards occasionally, and those with glowing reviews of the new Realms, with few exceptions (Skeptic and Sanshiver here to name a few) are not long term fans of the setting. I doubt that few of them will still be playing FR in three years; they will move on to Eberron, then the next setting, and the setting after that.
I don’t think WotC wants nurturers of the setting; those people who wander into an unknown gaming store, peruses the shelves, and gasps with amazement at a great buy of Aurora’s Catalogue or a collection of Dragon magazine’s with the Ed’s Everwinking Eye columns within. As I mentioned, a few scribes here are the exception to what I have witnessed elsewhere, as they also care and love the Realms, even if it has been to the plastic surgeon for a small “tuck and trim”. I just don’t think they are what WotC is wanting from its buyers.
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| Brunswick |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 18:19:31
Of course, they probably mean that the "totally explored" Realms doesnt gel with their points of light concept. I suppose the days of Volos guides are long gone...as others have said, the lore of the Realms was what made the world so special...now, it just conforms to the new rules.. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 09:25:24
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
"By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover"
Using that as the reason for these sweeping changes is the one statement I just cannot reconcile with the truth of the realms.
It is almost unbelievable that they dared to write such nonsense.  |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 04:45:21
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I forgot to mention (and I am unsure if this should be its own topic or not) but what is up with the creation story for 4E Realms? Not only was it half-assed due to the sudden springing of 4th Edition which leaves me to take half of the lore presented in 4E Realms as simply last-minute details but did they have to plagiarize the creation stories too?
I don't know how many of you here are familiar with White Wolf's Exalted line of RPG products, but doesn't the backstory for the creation of Exalted's world and the story for the creation of 4E Realms show rather striking similarities? They share so many things in common, I wouldn't be surprised if someone in their meetings said,"We need something quick for 4E Realms and the D&D Cosmology...let's make it easy take what Exalted did!" 
Considering that there's Spellscarred (Eberron's Dragonmarked), the Loudwater adventure has goblins attacking a town by creating a loud disturbance with a Hexer inspiring them (Paizo's Rise of the Runelords #1), and they had a major event and jumped forward 100 years (Battletech's Jihad). I'd chalk it up to business as usual.
And, yes, we discussed the goblins attack as being coincidental before, but considering that 4E is making such a big deal 'rules-wise' that they are uber-sneaky, why doesn't the adventure use that to its advantage? Instead of loudly blowing up a wall midday, why not use their stealth and have them dig tunnels under the wall and sneak in or simply wait til cover of night and scale the wall. |
| Razz |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 04:19:08
I forgot to mention (and I am unsure if this should be its own topic or not) but what is up with the creation story for 4E Realms? Not only was it half-assed due to the sudden springing of 4th Edition which leaves me to take half of the lore presented in 4E Realms as simply last-minute details but did they have to plagiarize the creation stories too?
I don't know how many of you here are familiar with White Wolf's Exalted line of RPG products, but doesn't the backstory for the creation of Exalted's world and the story for the creation of 4E Realms show rather striking similarities? They share so many things in common, I wouldn't be surprised if someone in their meetings said,"We need something quick for 4E Realms and the D&D Cosmology...let's make it easy take what Exalted did!" |
| Razz |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 04:05:23
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I was still disappointed and unhappy with their decisions because the only thing behind those decisions was the dollar sign.
I will say one thing here: as WOTC is not a charity, and own the relevant IP, as such, it is perfectly normal and acceptable for them to make decisions with the dollar sign in mind.
I do disagree with the outcome of their decision though, but that's another matter entirely ;-)
True, but then again, TSR did help create a rich campaign setting without the dollar sign in mind (or, if it was in mind, they obviously didn't do a good job of keeping it but we still got one hell of a setting because of it).
There's a middle-ground to achieve and, unfortunately in a capitalistic society, no company cares about the middle-ground. True visionaries and idealists, however, can achieve that.
It comes down to the fact that D&D and everything with it should never be run by a corporation, it should only be run by those that know what they're doing with it and not for purely just for profit. Sure, it keeps the game flowing on average within a specific demographic, but who cares? D&D has been in its own demographic for decades and survived, it was best where it was at then right where it is now which is trying to appease the children, ADD teenagers, and wishy-washy MMORPG players. (not saying they're all are like that, but the majority unfortunately are) |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 21:28:09
"By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover"
Using that as the reason for these sweeping changes is the one statement I just cannot reconcile with the truth of the realms. |
| monknwildcat |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 19:48:17
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Off topic, did I mention Bruce Cordell fosters cats? www.brucecordell.com Kit of Chthulu! How awesome is that!?!? People fostering homeless animals deserve props!
Yes, he does foster cats. As a cat-lover (and animal lover) I totally respect and appreciate him for that.
That said, his designing for the Realms is something seperate, and as it happens I have not cared much for his "take" on the Realms overall. I have criticized it and will criticize it, but it shouldn't be taken as anything personal.
Agreed.
I've had my surfeit of Lovecraft within other settings. Illithids and dopplegangers are the extent of aberrations IMC, and I flinch at phaerimm and sharns--now nilshai and aboleths. I'm fine without infinite variations of undead. All that to say, I guess I'm rather vanilla in my game--and enjoyed the past flavor of the Realms.
But it's difficult to ascertain any designer's work without a more direct method of crediting. For instance, who grafted the Feywild onto the FR? I like much of it, and I'd like to credit and further question the designer.  |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 18:31:37
Ironically, I disagree with his handling of the realms but find myself in agreement with many of his outlooks. Just goes to show how people can be alike and unique. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 18:13:15
quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Off topic, did I mention Bruce Cordell fosters cats? www.brucecordell.com Kit of Chthulu! How awesome is that!?!? People fostering homeless animals deserve props!
Yes, he does foster cats. As a cat-lover (and animal lover) I totally respect and appreciate him for that.
That said, his designing for the Realms is something seperate, and as it happens I have not cared much for his "take" on the Realms overall. I have criticized it and will criticize it, but it shouldn't be taken as anything personal. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 16:46:56
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The hot air since is a just post-hoc justification of this commercial decision, annoying as it may be that they're spinning a business contingency as a general truth.
That's been my thinking, as well. It strikes me as rather dishonest, I must admit. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 15:53:27
Last time the FRCS easily outsold the rest of the Realms sourcebook line. This time I bet you a doughnut the thinking was 'Let's split the FRCS into two books, put those out then move on to new base setting products before the sales tail off.' As they would, because not everyone wants to know as much about the Realms as we do. The hot air since is a just post-hoc justification of this commercial decision, annoying as it may be that they're spinning a business contingency as a general truth. A two-book setting doesn't need the depth and detail the Realms has. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 15:27:48
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
To be honest, I do not comprehend the argument that the Realms was dying under the weight of its own history. That was the thing that drew me to FR in the first place, its rich and very detailed lore.
Ditto! The history and detail was a huge amount of the draw of the setting. |
| khorne |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 14:29:27
To be honest, I do not comprehend the argument that the Realms was dying under the weight of its own history. That was the thing that drew me to FR in the first place, its rich and very detailed lore.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 13:24:30
My point is, though, that there is really no logical reason why any given area can apparently only be used once, like they are saying. Every story doesn't have to be so grand and sweeping in scale that it makes changes to its area. There is plenty of room for smaller stories in every single city of the Realms.
Hells, they themselves are invalidating that excuse right now, by giving us a series of books set in one city! And it's a city that, I might add, has already hosted a lot of novels by a lot of different people. |
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