| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Soturno |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 13:17:18
This article from Dragon #366 http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080815a shows a little about what happened to Red wizards and their enclaves. |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 14:22:23
Folks, let's try to keep on topic. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 13:06:22
Maybe time to migrate this to a new topic? |
| StarBog |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 11:06:42
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
My only problem is that my group recruited a new player about 6 months ago, and that this "newbie" has been vocal in regards to switching to 4E. We quelled the rebellion pretty quick.
Count yourself lucky you didn't have this player:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=409307
"So, a friend of mine says he wants to start a D&D campaign. I said sure. However, when I asked which rules he'd be using, he said 3e, cause he had the books, and didn't want to pay 90 bucks for a new set of core rules. Which I feel is a terrible argument."
Our gaming group is running 4e and 3.5e and even AD&D in parallel, though we do run typically 4 or 5 tables of games every week. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 11:01:19
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
My only problem is that my group recruited a new player about 6 months ago, and that this "newbie" has been vocal in regards to switching to 4E. We quelled the rebellion pretty quick.
However, now that I have quelled the rebellion... he is now opposing our switch to Pathfinder rules, saying that "I made a big fuss about staying in TRUE 3.5, and that we should honor that deal."
I'm afraid he's got a point, but still... I wish I could try the new rules with my group... Thoughts? Ideas?
The only thing I can think of is to ask him to give it a chance. If he
is dissatisfied after a couple of sessions you could always go back to the old system. And what of the other players, are they neutral on the subjekt or are they in favour of Pathfinder? |
| Pandora |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 02:57:13
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Thoughts? Ideas?
Every DM has the right to introduce houserules and since Pathfinder is "3.75" it should be compatible with 3.5. If your newbie objects to houserules just remind him of one of the number of broken 3.5 things and explain that the rules are NOT PERFECT and have to be adjusted. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 01:24:56
My only problem is that my group recruited a new player about 6 months ago, and that this "newbie" has been vocal in regards to switching to 4E. We quelled the rebellion pretty quick.
However, now that I have quelled the rebellion... he is now opposing our switch to Pathfinder rules, saying that "I made a big fuss about staying in TRUE 3.5, and that we should honor that deal."
I'm afraid he's got a point, but still... I wish I could try the new rules with my group... Thoughts? Ideas? |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 22:30:21
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Well, after much consideration... I've finally decided to make the transition to Pathfinder. The Beta rules are just... fantastic. I can't see the appeal with 4E, but Pathfinder 3.5 Beta is marvelous!
I've been reading the free Beta PDF all night and kept nodding in approval throughout... the changes proposed... just make sense! For example, I blinked twice when I saw that they dropped "Use Rope" completely, and instead added the "Fly" skill, but thinking about it, I realized it makes sense as I have used the fly spell hundreds of time with both PCs and NPCs since 2000, and Use Rope, well... a huge total of ONCE in 8 YEARS OF GAMEPLAY! TO TIE A FELLOW PC DOWN!!! 
I agree with you -- the rules are fantastic, and the art is simply STUNNING! It's sad that I have to wait for my print copy for another month or so (the price I have to pay for living in the Land of the Linnor... I mean, Finland  ). You forgot to mention that in addition to the 420+ pages of rules, they also gave away a Web Enhancement with 60+ pages of stuff that didn't fit in the book!  
I also agree with you on Fly-skill (We've used Sleight of Hand instead of Use Rope for a while) and there are changes that I would have liked to see in the book (e.g. Swim, Jump and Climb merged into Athletics), but all in all it's shaping up to be the best edition of D&D! |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 22:24:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
Ah, Bruce, what have you done.
A true role-player can stand to play a long-haired dwarven warlock merchant that calls himself a "red wizard" and dresses in red.
But nobody playing a "red wizard" can stand to have his character live in "ROSE" keep.
Was the name chosen at random throwing a die? What were the other choices? Purple, Violet and Pink? How long before we see pink wizard "heretic" enclaves?
Red Wizbane
*SHHHHH*! Don't give them any funny ideas...  |
| Wizbane |
Posted - 17 Aug 2008 : 09:12:29
Ah, Bruce, what have you done.
A true role-player can stand to play a long-haired dwarven warlock merchant that calls himself a "red wizard" and dresses in red.
But nobody playing a "red wizard" can stand to have his character live in "ROSE" keep.
Was the name chosen at random throwing a die? What were the other choices? Purple, Violet and Pink? How long before we see pink wizard "heretic" enclaves?
Red Wizbane
|
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 16 Aug 2008 : 04:49:42
Well, after much consideration... I've finally decided to make the transition to Pathfinder. The Beta rules are just... fantastic. I can't see the appeal with 4E, but Pathfinder 3.5 Beta is marvelous!
I've been reading the free Beta PDF all night and kept nodding in approval throughout... the changes proposed... just make sense! For example, I blinked twice when I saw that they dropped "Use Rope" completely, and instead added the "Fly" skill, but thinking about it, I realized it makes sense as I have used the fly spell hundreds of time with both PCs and NPCs since 2000, and Use Rope, well... a huge total of ONCE in 8 YEARS OF GAMEPLAY! TO TIE A FELLOW PC DOWN!!! |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 16 Aug 2008 : 01:55:15
The poor wizards inside Rose Keep... I'm sure they keep telling themselves it isn't rose, it's lightish red.
As for the rest, no I'm sorry, I can come up with a "blank slate" type adventure on my own, thank you. I'll use the money saved to get a graph paper notebook to write it in. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 16 Aug 2008 : 00:32:00
Hey, anybody running the H series modules in the 4E Realms, check this out.
I've seen some people suggest dropping this enclave into Thunderspire Labyrinth in place of the "Mages of Saruun" who run the Seven-Pillared Hall in H2.
While it wasn't mentioned in the Realms conversion notes for either H1 or H2, it's certainly synergistic that the current majority owner of the Rose Keep, Tharna Shavres, "...had a son named Kalarel, but he has not been seen in decades. Apparently Tharna and Kalarel had a nasty falling-out over a cursed magic item--a sort of portal mouth. Tharna wanted it destroyed, but Kalarel wanted it for himself" (Cordell/WotC, "Rose Keep," Dragon #366 p. 3).
Kalarel, of course, is the name of the priest attempting to fulfill Shar's deal with the shadow dragon Shadraxil in the FR version of H1, The Keep on the Shadowfell.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 22:53:25
Having now read the article, I'll sum up what I said on the WotC boards--taken as a Realmslore article, it does nothing for me, but as a group of generic plot hooks, I think it could work well even if tweaked. |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 18:32:00
Oh, I know where I'm playing.
Cormyr and the Dalelands, FR 1372 and Golarion. ;) |
| Fire Wraith |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 18:29:38
We can certainly spend a lot of time trying to fill in the blanks they've left, or trumping up minor allusions to try and re-retcon things back to some semblance of normality... but why not just play in the 1370s still?
Or, for that matter... why not just play someplace else like Golarion?
I really fail to see what the appeal of this version of the setting is. It comes off to me as something of an "FR Lite", a simplified version of the setting that has been shoe-horned into a generic role, for generic games of D&D, at the cost of many of the things that once made it unique and memorable. |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 18:22:05
So, people can spend loads of money on products just to be given a blank slate?
I know when I spend money on products, I want to have stuff I can use. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 17:53:25
Well, leaving DMs wiggle room is one thing. Leaving everything a blank slate is another... I mean, yeah, a blank slate is total freedom. But some might look at that and say "nothing there, it's not interesting". Others -- myself included -- would benefit from some minor details. Especially since the minor details often spawn some of the greatest ideas. This piece is just too empty to offer me any inspiration.
Expanding a bit more on what they should have done, IMO... Adding a bit to my Red Wizard Schism idea (Red vs. Red? Red War?). How about Szass Tam's actions cause a schism, and the Red Wizards break into three camps: One is pro-Tam, one is anti-Tam, and one just wants to continue being evil and ambitious. I see the third faction as breaking away totally and settling elsewhere, perhaps in a Border Kingdom or in the Pirate Isles. The pro-Tam faction would of course be in Thay. And the anti-Tam faction would be the Red Wal-Marts, operating out of their new capital: Mulmaster. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 17:06:39
Not that I'm the first person to come to 4e FR's defense, buuuut...
The complete lack of detail does allow us to fill in the blanks anyway we want, and we can pretty-much spin it back to something close to what we have.
If we run with Wooly's concept, why can't these 'new' Red Wizards be secretly trying to re-establish the old Thay? Right now, the 'Thaymarts' are all they have - they have sort-of become a "Gov't-in-exile", if you will. I would say thats the reason the still meet with each other once in awhile - the 'Higher-ups' are probably trying to figure out a way to bring back their 'past glory'.
Now I picture that group being undecided and fractious - they are the true legacy of Thay, after all. I assume that their would be two major factions within the Enclave-Camp - the ones who want to try and re-take Thay from Szass and his minions, and the ones that want to establish a new Thay elsewhere, rather then waste what precious resources they have on a fruitless war.
And as usual, the various guys in charge can't agree on what to do, so they spend all their time arguiing and not getting much done in the way of their goals. Then I also see a new, 3rd faction rising in power, of young Wizards who aren't steeped in past traditions, who want to bring about a unified front... by assassinating all their Elders and taking over the consortium themselves. 
So you see, we can actually take the pitiful schlock they hand us, and spin it into something far more useful in-game.
I've learned to embrace the Freedom a lore-free setting will allow me as a DM. Although I will greatly miss the FR I know and love, I now have a brand-new setting I can totally disrespect and make my own.
So my games will be filled with fresh ideas (mostly my own, because they really didn't give us too many), and I will be able to save tons of money. With only two source books to buy, and absolutely NO novels set in a time-period I care about, I have lots more money to send other companies way.
They didn't hurt ME - they hurt themselves. I still plan on using all the old edition stuff in my game, so I have everything I'll ever need. Nothing is stopping anyone from using all the old stuff they want, and just cherry-picking from the bare-bones 4e sources.
I no longer feel I have to keep up with all the novels, and in hindsight, thats a REALLY good thing - the last couple of years haven't really been all that good, in that regard (with a couple of notable exceptions). I think once most of us get past the sense of loss, you'll realize that the recent stuff really wasn't worth clinging to, anyway. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 16:01:33
And now WotC are reminding me of work. But then again, that at least is not their fault.
I've never been all that enamoured with the way the Red Wizards have been presented, but this doesn't exactly improve on anything. Never liked the obligatory bald and tattooed part though. |
| StarBog |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 15:56:29
quote:
It does sound more like something a paladin of Lathander would name his home, rather than a Red Wizard enclave.
Naughty Rupert! Don't you know its now Amaunator! References to Lathander are now strictly verboten by order of the Computer (who is your friend, incidentally)
Incidentally, I wonder in the new Shattered Realms if the whole Lathander-Amaunator malarkey was retconned or we're simply made to believe that in 100 years everyone conveniently forgot about Lathander. Mayhaps time for a new scroll to discuss this question?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 15:41:48
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
"Rose Keep"--the wussiest name for a keep.
It does sound more like something a paladin of Lathander would name his home, rather than a Red Wizard enclave. |
| Fire Wraith |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 15:38:42
They're not the Red Wizards anymore - they're the Rose Wizards. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 14:52:50
"Rose Keep"--the wussiest name for a keep. |
| Quale |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 14:26:14
those ain't red wizards, they have hair, no tattoos, one is dwarf and they're in Aglarond |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 14:19:55
It wasn't bad... Just not great.
I find it unlikely, though, that an organization of self-serving, highly ambitious mages should turn into a loose affiliation of merchants. The Red Wal-Marts were a great idea for spreading Thayvan influence, and now they have no connection to Thay? Nah, I don't see it. Even given the events lists in the history...
In fact, I'd think a schism would be more likely, with Red Wizards in exile contesting against "loyalist" Red Wizards. The Reds in Exile would keep gaining money and support by running the Red Wal-Marts, building up resources to use against the Loyalist Reds. That makes more sense to me than the disconnection and "diluting" of the name Red Wizards.
I will also note that here's a formerly evil group that is no longer evil... Backing up my assertation that all evil in the Realms of 4E is connected to Shar. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 13:31:05
Red Wizards arent bald and tattoed anymore? (see the picture)
The text explains "statistics" such as: "Once every two years, a Red Wizard or two from each enclave travels to meet at a convention of peers.", but not the general behaviour. If I didnt know what to expect from them I would have no idea and since its a new edition I would expect such a detailed description on social and cultural behaviour.
The usual bland junk we have seen a few times already. |
| StarBog |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 13:26:32
quote:
Originally posted by Soturno
This article from Dragon #366 http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080815a shows a little about what happened to Red wizards and their enclaves.
Hmmmm.....I wasn't that impressed with it. It just seems so...generic. It also has a disturbingly post-apocalpytic feeling to it which if it is indicitive of the new Realms just reinforces my decision not to go anywhere near it with the proverbial bargepole. I half expected there to be a "Mad Max" NPC somewhere in there.
(I do like the Astronomer NPC though (but that's just my RL biases coming though I guess) and might nick him for my next campaign). |
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