| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| capnvan |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 10:37:32
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| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 22:32:39
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Have you considered teh possibility they left some of those extra details out on purpose?
That, and we haven't gotten to read the whole Loudwater description/location information in the FRCG.
Perhaps those details (about the goblin raid, how they knew where to go, etc...) are in the page you haven't read yet.
I had the very same attitude, in the very beginning of the 4e stuff, but that optimism quickly turned sour. Wooly maintained his optimism much longer, always reminding me of us not knowing all the pieces, until all them pieces came shattering down.
Indeed. I tried harder than most to hold on to my optimism, and I did so for longer, but then WotC put out even more info, and I just couldn't hold on to it any more. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 21:11:41
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
It's (again, IMO) walked away from a tool for a DM to create a campaign and walked towards a tool to play a game with a preset script.
I'm sorry you feel that way, ShadesofDis.
FWIW, having played 4E with the H1 module, I've found it doesn't feel like railroading at all.
The adventures aren't lavishly detailed, but they aren't lacking in major details either.
In my opinion that's good.
I think it's better for DMs to be given the basics as they're learning the game (remember, we're talking 1st - 3rd level play here), then they can flesh things out with the information given in an adventure as it suits their needs and the demands of their players.
Consider your comments about a separate raid on the town, spies in the town and so on.....that's all stuff that is easier for DMs to add to an adventure then it is to print in the adventure first and saddle all DMs with.
4E adventures (so far) appear to allow DMs to tack on as much detail as they want, with a minimum given in the adventures that let people start playing right away, which is the right approach to take (IMO).
Should Realms products have more details...yes, I think to a limited degree they should. We want Realms flavor of course.
But even so, it's still about playing D&D.
We'll have to wait and see just how the FR Campaign Guide is structured before we'll know for sure if WotC put in the details or not. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 19:11:42
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I had the very same attitude, in the very beginning of the 4e stuff, but that optimism quickly turned sour. Wooly maintained his optimism much longer, always reminding me of us not knowing all the pieces, untill all them pieces cam shattering down.
haha
There is that too.
I have been waiting for . . . a long time for something to be excited about. I'm hoping the Cormyr article will do it but I'm not going to be able to really check it out for another week or so. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 19:07:14
The only purpose I can see to leaving out the details is;
Reduce word count. If they have a limited number of words for the preview.
or
They don't have the details.
I wouldn't be surprised by the limited word count but even so it's not an encounter that I'd pay money to read. The NPCs don't seem to be NPCs that I'd pay money to use. And that's what the base line is, I'm not seeing anything that I should shell out money for yet. DDI seems like it won't contain much lore, though they could be writing furiously and saving up so they can release things at a regular rate (ie. produce more than you need so that you make sure you have 5 articles a month, or whatever) but I'll wait a few months after they start charging to see if people actually get anything from the service. The mechanical aspects of 4E, in general, don't interest me and it seems like the areas they are focusing on are areas that I'm not interested in.
Anyhow, the base point is that WotC has lost my faith. I view them a lot like Hollywood really. The product the produce has walked away from verisimilitude (IMO), it has walked away from providing a setting and walked towards providing an adventure. It's (again, IMO) walked away from a tool for a DM to create a campaign and walked towards a tool to play a game with a preset script.
I've always described role playing as ad lib acting, it seems to me that 4E doesn't enhance the ability to create whatever story you may like to create.
And that's just my opinion. I'd ABSOLUTELY love to be wrong. I'd totally love that. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 18:57:39
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Have you considered teh possibility they left some of those extra details out on purpose?
That, and we haven't gotten to read the whole Loudwater description/location information in the FRCG.
Perhaps those details (about the goblin raid, how they knew where to go, etc...) are in the page you haven't read yet.
I had the very same attitude, in the very beginning of the 4e stuff, but that optimism quickly turned sour. Wooly maintained his optimism much longer, always reminding me of us not knowing all the pieces, until all them pieces came shattering down. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 18:44:10
Have you considered teh possibility they left some of those extra details out on purpose?
That, and we haven't gotten to read the whole Loudwater description/location information in the FRCG.
Perhaps those details (about the goblin raid, how they knew where to go, etc...) are in the page you haven't read yet. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 17:45:38
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
To me it seems that at least so far 4E adventurers have proved to be a "glorified" series of combat encounters with less flavour or emphasis on story than in 3E. I just wonder why the designers were so excited about 4E "freeing" you to spend less time on encounter/monster/NPC design and more on story and role-playing? In my opinion the adventures we've seen so far haven't been very good examples of this -- quite the opposite, in fact.
Well, there is an attempt at that. It just is pretty half hearted and not developed in the least.
Which is just unforgivable to me. It's their job to produce this, not their hobby, not their "Oh damn, I have to have my encounter ready for the weekend and I'm working double shifts all this week, have a birthday for my wife's sister and need to make sure I get the garbage disposal fixed." I mean honestly, I stretch myself to find half hours throughout the week to be able to write games. I do it on breaks at work, I do it in the half hour when I get home before errands, I do it when I really should have already gone to bed but I really just need to get some ideas down for the family of this baker who's brother-in-law is a dock worker/thug who may just be able to inform the party that in the past month or so there has been a dramatic drop in the rat population and he's seen a ridiculous number of snakes in the area. In a month or two he'll be able to tell the party about how the sailors on a ship talked about seeing House Brodash ships anchored off the shore of a small island.
That's real rough right there, but it feels a lot more real and a lot more well thought out than the NPCs presented or the encounter provided, IMO. (Still haven't read the Cormyr article, that's probably far better.)
And I just threw that out.
And that's my problem with paying for their services. |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 07:53:05
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
They're goblins. There's no mix. They're all goblins. Have you just fallen to the point where you're willing yourself to like anything?
Hush, whelp.
When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you first.
Particularly since you appear to have not actually read the encounter description.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Could be. As the place where 13 goblins were dumb enough to assault a town of 2,000 during broad daylight.
You know smart goblins? Will wonders never cease?
Look, I can understand people not liking something and expressing their opinion about it. I don’t come to these forums with high hopes for reading positive responses to the 4E Realms.
But trying to browbeat others into some pathetic form of group-hate is a little too much.
Save it for the WotC boards.
*Wanders through mumbling something about a pot and a kettle....* |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 07:52:20
Okay, I think we can move on from this side debate, since it's slowly entering into "uncivilised discussion" territory.
Sanishiver, capnvan... if either of you wish to discuss this matter further, I suggest taking it to PMs.
Now, this is your second and final warning. Get back on topic or I'll have to seal this scroll. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 06:11:36
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
They're goblins. There's no mix. They're all goblins. Have you just fallen to the point where you're willing yourself to like anything?
Hush, whelp.
When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you first.
Particularly since you appear to have not actually read the encounter description.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Could be. As the place where 13 goblins were dumb enough to assault a town of 2,000 during broad daylight.
You know smart goblins? Will wonders never cease?
Look, I can understand people not liking something and expressing their opinion about it. I don’t come to these forums with high hopes for reading positive responses to the 4E Realms.
But trying to browbeat others into some pathetic form of group-hate is a little too much.
Save it for the WotC boards. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 03:39:39
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
The start of Paizo's Burnt Offerings involves a Goblin Raid on a town. However, they make it interesting, they make the goblins interesting (along with evil and comedic in equal measure) and make a really good set of encounters out of what sounds quite clichéd.
This encounter just fails to do anything.
Yeah, that (well-written) encounter is possible since the town is way smaller than Loudwater and it is also strongly connected to the backstory of the adventure -- not just a hastily written typical combat encounter without any logical motivation or reasons why and how the goblins would invade the town.
To me it seems that at least so far 4E adventurers have proved to be a "glorified" series of combat encounters with less flavour or emphasis on story than in 3E. I just wonder why the designers were so excited about 4E "freeing" you to spend less time on encounter/monster/NPC design and more on story and role-playing? In my opinion the adventures we've seen so far haven't been very good examples of this -- quite the opposite, in fact. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 23:03:36
If only the goblins had a theme song . . . |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 23:02:09
The start of Paizo's Burnt Offerings involves a Goblin Raid on a town. However, they make it interesting, they make the goblins interesting (along with evil and comedic in equal measure) and make a really good set of encounters out of what sounds quite clichéd.
This encounter just fails to do anything. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 22:36:18
Play nice, people. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 17:41:52
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Maybe they had just wandered in as themselves but told the guards on the gate they were gnomes, and that he wasn't to worry.
ROFLMAO, a piece of genius deduction, makes perfect sense if you think about it    
Excellent thread this
Damian |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 16:55:10
Hells (I don't care what the 4E set up is, there's 9 Hells and 666 layers of the Abyss), I'd have bought the encounter had it been;
-Poor lighting (signifying that it was night, but that there were some street lamps that didn't get knocked over by the blast)
-There was some sort of raid on the other side of town, 50 or so humanoids raiding farms just outside the walls, the 13 goblin raiders watch the town until a force heads out to take on the raiders, then goes to their spot and scales the wall to enter the town (perhaps the hexer even stays on the top of the wall, using the height advantage to keep watch for approaching forces and to give a clear line of sight to anyone he/she wants to zap)
-Some way for them to actually know where the trinket was (spies in town? maybe they helped knock out sentries on the wall where the goblins wanted to enter?)
-Some accounting of the other patrons of the Tavern, since it's the adventurer hang out.
And, the thing that annoys me the most is that all of these holes I see are easily solved by a damned minute of thinking. |
| Kyrene |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 11:07:15
By Auril's frigid chastity belt, that wall is ten foot thick. How in the hells... erm... hell... erm... Is it hells, or hell, or lower plane, or planes in 4E?
I think the lone sentry must have been asleep during the whole thing.
Nuked the fridge indeed... :that *sigh* smiley: |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 08:28:05
I wonder if the explosion is indicative of gunpowder or similar finding its way into the wider Realms?
I like the structure of the encounter. Having a wall explode right next to the Tavern where the players are at makes for an eye-opening, in your face encounter.
First thing the players ask just after the glass windows of the Tavern shatter from the force of the explosion: “The wall....it blew up?” Then, “Goblins did that!?”
Heehee.....a good DM could hint that maybe one of the goblins (the Hexer) has smoke rising up from him and red, glowing eyes, so as to imply the Hexer blew up the wall singlehandedly.
I think most characters might just run to the other end of town and hide at that point. ;)
I could also see a player trying to bull rush or bash a goblin over the lip of the well, while shouting “THIS IS SPARTA!!!!”
Something I noticed was that the Hexer can alter a ranged attack that targets him onto one of his allies. This solves the problem of countering ranged attacks on the Hexer because the Goblin Cutter Minions don’t have to rush the characters to shut their ranged attacks down.
Just send the two Goblin Warrios up and have at least two Cutters move with them to cover their flanks. This leaves six Cutters to protect the Hexer.
Nice mix of monsters in this one. It sounds like it would be a good battle to play through. I think could probably borrow it wholesale and drop it into Keep on the Shadowfell for the Realms.
This adventure won’t leave characters with an improved knowledge of the Realmslore of Loudwater, but by Azuth’s Haughty Finger it will make them remember Loudwater.
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| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 07:41:02
By Ao's ignored worshippers[1], the only reason I can offer for why the 13 goblins have appeared in the town is that they were hiding in someone's cellar. Or had disguised themselves somehow. Maybe they had just wandered in as themselves but told the guards on the gate they were gnomes, and that he wasn't to worry. However, the cellar option makes sense as I notice that all of the shopkeepers lock their doors after the fighting starts. Is it at all possible that the explosion in the wall was a decoy so as to divert attention from Lady Minxfire who is secretly having an affair with the ghost of Kaanyr Vhok[2]?
I hope that I'm not giving this more thought than the designers. After all, I'm just an idiot consumer.
1. By mentioning Ao I'm clearly getting power-gamer tendencies. I do apologise.
2. Assuming he's dead. |
| Talwyn |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 07:29:25
By Ghaudahars glistening gloop! This load of dingos kidneys of an adventure looks like going straight into the shredder of contempt. The more I read through the excerp, the more incredulous I become.
Is this what is supposed to win over established D&D gamers and attract new ones to D&D?
By Torms Terrific Thews, I hope and pray that this was the work of some neophyte intern at WotC who has been soundly flogged for trotting out such appalling nonsense. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 01:04:25
By Sharess's scratching post, that's pretty sad. I know low level PCs are delicate little flowers and all, but seriously. If the goblins can blast holes in walls that are (presumably) not made of toothpicks or chocolate, then you are not throwing a low level threat at your PCs anymore.
Now someone has to ask the question: How, by Auppenser's interrupted meditations, did the goblins get a hold of Nitrus's oil of Glycerin?
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| The Red Walker |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 00:17:57
By Mystra's Stabbed Back, this is insufferable tripe. 
R.I.P. Pre Sellplague Realms |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 19:30:39
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
. . . so a band of 13 goblins attacks a town of 2,000? By blasting a hole in the town wall?
What'd they blast the wall with? Where were the folks who were supposed to be watching for raids? I mean, if points of light is the word of the day then the town should have good lines of sight so they can see any approaching forces.
This really is the sort of stuff that makes me homebrew. One of the main draws, for myself, of the Realms is that a lot of work is already done. This stuff, well, sure you can run an adventure. . . well. . . with a certain style of group*, right out of the box . . . but. . . well. . . that doesn't seem like a very big benefit to me.
*This part is the real key. If I were a PC in the game I'd work on improving the city watch first off. Probably end up taking it over and securing Loudwater against monsterous incursions, because if a band of 13 goblins is going to strike your town, presumably during the day (didn't even think of that yet, but 13 goblins attacking during the day? That's just plain stupid), then your security is just pathetic.
Boy, the more I think about how the town must be for the adventure to work the more I get annoyed.
That's brilliant! *applauds*
I think, in a third preview we'll discover that Lady Moonfire is no longer regarded as the head of Loudwater because 13 goblins can just blow a hole in the wall, in the daylight whenever they like. Of course, with her attraction to Tieflings it could be she's got a secret agenda. Hmm, I can't see that happening from what we've been presented with so far.
Then again, maybe the goblins left a giant wooden statue of Maglubiyet (or a tiefling) outside the city gates. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 19:20:58
. . . so a band of 13 goblins attacks a town of 2,000? By blasting a hole in the town wall?
What'd they blast the wall with? Where were the folks who were supposed to be watching for raids? I mean, if points of light is the word of the day then the town should have good lines of sight so they can see any approaching forces.
This really is the sort of stuff that makes me homebrew. One of the main draws, for myself, of the Realms is that a lot of work is already done. This stuff, well, sure you can run an adventure. . . well. . . with a certain style of group*, right out of the box . . . but. . . well. . . that doesn't seem like a very big benefit to me.
*This part is the real key. If I were a PC in the game I'd work on improving the city watch first off. Probably end up taking it over and securing Loudwater against monsterous incursions, because if a band of 13 goblins is going to strike your town, presumably during the day (didn't even think of that yet, but 13 goblins attacking during the day? That's just plain stupid), then your security is just pathetic.
Boy, the more I think about how the town must be for the adventure to work the more I get annoyed. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 18:42:26
Oh well, it is what it is. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 18:12:19
I know that they are trying to showcase Loudwater, but I think it would be more useful to give us the preview articles that were already written (I know Brian has done one that has never seen the light of day) and cover things that are important to the fans like which deities remain and one of the excerpts from Ed's bit on Waterdeep or the vast and glorious "new continent?" Though I guess it would be too much to expect them to adopt a logical marketing strategy now... |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 15:52:53
You have downloaded this encounter. What do you do next?
1. Make a quip based on the "By Mystra's Lost Spell" about it.
2. Accept Quest.
3. Roll in the mud, attach two carrots to your forehead and sidle up to Lady Moonfire, saying "Have you got any Tiefling in you?"
*click*
You speak to Lady Moonfire.
"Have you got any Tiefling in you?"
Lady Moonfire thinks.
"No."
Do you say?
1. Do you want some?
2. This isn't mud, it's balor blood.
3. Get your cloak, you've pulled. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 14:51:58
That's as underwhelming as the first one... Though I found the mention of Najara interesting.
They really make it sound like Points of Light is going on, which I could have sworn they said wasn't being done to the Realms. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 14:21:12
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
A really brief "encounter" with a tactical miniatures map -
Excerpts: Loudwater
Interesting to note that pre-Spellplague, Loudwater had no town walls.
Of course, it's also interesting to note that apparently, when they built the walls, they managed to do so in a precisely east-west configuration. And make sure that all the buildings and streets around them were built at 90 degree angles from there.
Can we get a :sigh: smilie?
Thanks for the link.
And they are magical walls silly!
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